Making Clicker Dies - And Need Clicker Suggestions

[Prince]

Hey folks, been a while.

I'm really thinking about getting a clicker for some of my base products and I'm wondering about the feasibility of making my own dies. I have a fairly nice metal shop started with the intention of making knives. I have an educated guess as to how they're made, I figure the jest of it is to heat and bend steel banding to a pattern, and to weld supports in, but beyond that, with things like sharpening the raw steel, if they are heat treated, or how complex shapes are made or how corners should be welded I have no clue. Does anyone here know anything about making them?

Beyond that though, as always I like to put the cart before the horse, I don't even have a clicker yet. I need some recommendations for some clickers. I have been looking around and I do like the Artisan 20 ton model. http://www.artisansew.com/manualsfiles/200-2%20B%20sheet.pdf I have delt with Artisan before when I got the Toro 3000 so like their service and products. From what I can tell this one is about $4500, I like its clean design and swing head. I'm not set on this one and if I could I'd like to find something used, either one of those or something comparable. Any one have suggestions of what others would be good?

Thanks

[UKRay]

The important thing is to have a pretty good idea of what, and how much you are going to cut before you invest the money. What size pieces of leather and what thickness - both will directly influence the machine you eventually choose.

I have gone through a costing exercise and decided that the amount of leather I need cut doesn't warrant me owning a machine - especialy when I can get my cutting done by Steve in Devon at a very competitive price (and I get to sit in his amazing workshop and chat about leather whilst he does it). IMHO You ought to do the same exercise yourself before spending a fortune on a machine that could sit idle for quite a bit of its lifetime...

Ray

[Prince]

I know what you mean. And you're basically correct; right now for me it would be close to pointless to have one, especially since at the moment 98% of my output is for unique custom one time items. But it's my personality to want to fast forward and run before I crawl and I'm strongly thinking about upping my production (for standard items) and doing more festivals and such. Outsourcing wouldn't be feasible for me given my current location, most likely anyway. I'm not going to get it immediately but hopefully before October if my current plans work out. And if I could get a good one for around $2K that would be really nice and it wouldn't take all that long to pay for itself even if I just sell stuff on stupid eBay.

As for what's to be cut I would say mostly 10oz things like for bracers and maybe some bigger pieces for shoulder armor and such. I figured for larger things the swing head would allow for multiple presses for larger dies if the need arises.

[rickybobby]

Azmal,

I have the same "disease" you do, "putting the cart before the horse" I don't need a clicker right now but still I hunt for the perfect one! In the saddle shop I worked in before going out on my own, we used a old "manual" clicker. I could never find a name on it and have never seen one like it since but have found some other "manual" ones. They are much cheaper then the powered machines and would not take up as much room. Check out this site http://www.acesteelruledies.com/diepress.html $1700.00 + $75.00 shipping, well under your budget!

There are some others as well by other companys, search the web and they will come up.

There is a company in Phoenix that makes clicker dies out of banding. The banding is embedded in a piece of wood to holds the shape and they are very reasonable, it is all we used at the saddle shop and they last just fine. If interested I can find out the name for you (I just don't remember right now) but I can make a phone call and get it for you.

Edited May 25, 2009 by rickybobby

[Dink]

Azmal

If you are interested I can get you some pictures of my die making machine, the one I have and am learning to use is a sandvic foot press. The metal used is called steel rule and comes pre sharpened in either 3/4" or 1 1/4" heigth and I believe they are 200' rolls. I am learning and not really profecient with really detailed pieces, but have made a few of my own dyes that I use now. The bracing I use and is used on dyes I have bought is either 3/16" strap in different widths or 1/2" square tubing. With this type of press all the bending is done cold. I use a chop saw for good straight ends, and do the joining welds with a wire feed welder.

I do not know of anyone who uses a heat or forging type process to shape dyes, though that does not mean it's not done, but I believe the problem with forging dies is getting the correct temper back in your steel. I have been immediatley cooling dies after welding with water to retemper. There are places you can purchase sharpeners for re-sharpening dyes.

As for clickers depending on the size of parts you are clicking, but the thickness you are using could be a struggle with a manually operated clicker. I use an Atom SE 20 and have been very happy with it, super dependable and very little maintenance. My advice is if you are cutting from whole sides, get something with at a large cutting area like a 24 x 48". You should be able to find this size in your price range. The reason I say this is that the newer clickers require both hands to operate and it can be tricky to hold a whole side plus die in place and click with both hands without things sliding.

You will also find that many of the clickers out there in this size operate on 240 volt three phase power and will not run on a residential power. this will require that you either use a phase converter or change the motor. I added a rotary phase converter to operate mine. This was around an additional $450 but works very well and was relatively easy to install.

That is my two cents worth but I will be happy to try and answer any oyher questions if I can.

Dink

[kevinhopkins]

Hi... for what it's worth, a clicker press will open all sorts of doors for you. maybe you don't "need" one, but sure as the world, if you have one, you'll use it! Especially if folks get to know that you have it. You can find used clicker presses that are quite serviceable and good, if you just look around a bit. Just make sure that you ask about the type of power that it takes to run it. 3 phase can be expensive to convert.

Kevin Hopkins

[Prince]

Azmal

If you are interested I can get you some pictures of my die making machine, the one I have and am learning to use is a sandvic foot press. The metal used is called steel rule and comes pre sharpened in either 3/4" or 1 1/4" heigth and I believe they are 200' rolls. I am learning and not really profecient with really detailed pieces, but have made a few of my own dyes that I use now. The bracing I use and is used on dyes I have bought is either 3/16" strap in different widths or 1/2" square tubing. With this type of press all the bending is done cold. I use a chop saw for good straight ends, and do the joining welds with a wire feed welder.

I do not know of anyone who uses a heat or forging type process to shape dyes, though that does not mean it's not done, but I believe the problem with forging dies is getting the correct temper back in your steel. I have been immediatley cooling dies after welding with water to retemper. There are places you can purchase sharpeners for re-sharpening dyes.

As for clickers depending on the size of parts you are clicking, but the thickness you are using could be a struggle with a manually operated clicker. I use an Atom SE 20 and have been very happy with it, super dependable and very little maintenance. My advice is if you are cutting from whole sides, get something with at a large cutting area like a 24 x 48". You should be able to find this size in your price range. The reason I say this is that the newer clickers require both hands to operate and it can be tricky to hold a whole side plus die in place and click with both hands without things sliding.

You will also find that many of the clickers out there in this size operate on 240 volt three phase power and will not run on a residential power. this will require that you either use a phase converter or change the motor. I added a rotary phase converter to operate mine. This was around an additional $450 but works very well and was relatively easy to install.

That is my two cents worth but I will be happy to try and answer any oyher questions if I can.

Dink

Sure, I'd love to see some pics. Thanks. I also agree that manual would be too much trouble to me.

[Dink]

Here is a picture of the bender and the box of different dies

Edited May 28, 2009 by Dink

[Sharpshooter]

We have to be clicking out pieces or we would be out of business in very short order.....

A couple of answers...

You have to heat treat steel in order to make it a knife or cutter. Soft steel doesn't have the carbides that are formed by heat threat so you can't get it sharp.

Steel Rule Dies are much more precise than clicker dies. That might not be important to you if you aren't doing production work that requires precision.

My sheaths have eyelet holes and snaps that have to line up.... fussing with 500 snap locations would kill any profitability of a job.

The small Tippman clicker might be fine on thin leathers but 5 ounces on up and it has issues. The bigger Tippman might be better but for the price you can get an electro hydraulic press that will be much easier to work with.

I get all of my steel rule dies done by AC Steel Rule, they do a terrific job and always provide great service. I have had them do enough dies for me that they understand leather work.

[Prince]

Dirk, very cool. What does a setup like that cost?

[Dink]

Ah the down side, It took me quite a while to find the bender but between the bender, two roles of rule, the barrels (containers for storing rule), all the dies and saw, I already had welders is about a $5000 investment. I looked at this when I purchased it as a complete stand alone, additional business to my leather business. Do you have interest in making dies?

Dirk, very cool. What does a setup like that cost?

[Prince]

Yes I do, but not as a supplemental business to my leather or metal works, but rather to save in the long haul by making my own as opposed to outsourcing them. I didn't think I'd need a special bender to do them though so it may not really save me so much as I thought. I figured I'd be able to do them with my current tools I've got for making knives and such.

I don't really know what clicker dies cost anyway though so it might easily enough not really have saved me so much anyhow.

[kevinhopkins]

Yes I do, but not as a supplemental business to my leather or metal works, but rather to save in the long haul by making my own as opposed to outsourcing them. I didn't think I'd need a special bender to do them though so it may not really save me so much as I thought. I figured I'd be able to do them with my current tools I've got for making knives and such.

I don't really know what clicker dies cost anyway though so it might easily enough not really have saved me so much anyhow.

Hi Azmal,

For what it's worth, the steel that clicker dies are made from is purchased as just that. You don't have to sharpen it, just cut, bend, weld, and all that stuff. The steel rule dies are a totally different animal. Usually they're either formed around a wood pc, or inset into a piece of wood, like 3/4 plywood or something similar. They have some drawbacks, especially if you're wanting to click a lot of pcs. If they're made in the style that is inset into a pc of wood, you can't see to rapidly position your die, and this will waste a lot of leather in a fairly short time. When we first started manufacturing wallets, we had all of our dies made of steel rule, because of the cost. It turned out that we eventually had them all remade from standard clicker die material, and it was the smartest thing I ever did. The steel rule dies also didn't have the life that a standard clicker die has. it doesn't take much for a steel rule die to get a nick in it, or for it to have a chip come away from the welded seam, and then you're forever having problems cutting clean. If you're not ever cutting any qty of anything, then steel rule might be ok, but I don't think I'd be using it on leather. All boot and shoe factories, (the few remaining) use standard clicker dies. If it will help, I'll gladly give you the phone number of the guy that I think is the cheapest die maker in the country. We just had a wristband die remade the other day, and it cost me 38 bucks, and it had 2 holes in it. If you'll either email me ( kevin@springfieldleather.com ) or call me, ( 800-668-8518) I'll give you his number and address.

Sorry to be longwinded!

Kevin

[Dink]

Kevin

just trying to clarify what you said about dies. The dies you are refferring to as standard clicker or steel dies, are the ones like we produce out of 3/4 or 11/4" pre sharpened steel rule that is bent and welded with braces but has an open top. And the ones you call steel rule are the ones that are either bedded or wrapped around a wooden form?

Dink