Social security and medicare taxes for small business owners

[esantoro]

Exactly. It is far easier to live off the ever flowing nipple than to work for what you get. The nipple provides just enough to keep you from supporting yourself.

Historicly, America started out as socialist. People were starving to death. They switched to a capitalist system and very soon, there was plenty. This was a long time ago.

Now I need you to defend this statement. How did America begin with socialism? It was private trading businesses from day one. In fact, it first tried to enslave Native-Americans to do the work, and by 1619 started using the transatlantic slave trade. This was coupled with indentured servitude, which is still with us today in curious ways. If you intend to go only as far back as 1776, where's the socialism. America embraced some socialist policies from 1933 to 1965, but it is not today a socialist country.

For those who are calling America a socialist country, it is not, not by a long shot. Just ask anyone from a country that truly does merge socialism with democracy.

But what I really want to know is how America started with socialism?

[bustedlifter]

But what I really want to know is how America started with socialism?

The pilgrims tried it and it failed miserably. If someone likes socialism, there are plenty of countries in the world to move to. I prefer the system that was set up to preserve the rights of the individual not what is in the best interest of "the common good". I remember when Clinton promised a tax cut but later said he couldn't do it. One of the reasons he gave was because he thought we might not spend the money the right way. What arrogance! It's our money in the first place!

[esantoro]

I certainly think there is a place for social democracy and believe that many other countries do a fairly good job with this.

I do think that conservative and liberal arguments go too far in their own ideologies.

Here's an article that seems to bridge some middle ground, though perhaps I like it because it blames unchecked conservative free-market ideology of the past thirty years for the necessary corrections that appear to be underway, necessary corrections that are being pejoratively labeled as "socialist." And it's free market ideology that has brought us to this point, not government. If the government has been involved, it has been to the extent that it has been taken over by free market ideology, an ideology that is anything but for the free market but rather for corporate markets. Where would we be in 20 years if such policies were allowed to continue growing more influential? Free marketers should know that Adam Smith greatly disagreed with the pseudo free market thinking of the past 30 or 40 years. Our founding fathers and Lincoln would also be appalled, as corporatocracy is another name for aristocratic control.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/eleven-re...my?pagenumber=2

Exactly. It is far easier to live off the ever flowing nipple than to work for what you get. The nipple provides just enough to keep you from supporting yourself.

Historicly, America started out as socialist. People were starving to death. They switched to a capitalist system and very soon, there was plenty. This was a long time ago.

Now I need you to defend this statement. How did America begin with socialism? It was private trading businesses from day one. In fact, it first tried to enslave Native-Americans to do the work, and by 1619 started using the transatlantic slave trade. This was coupled with indentured servitude, which is still with us today in curious ways. If you intend to go only as far back as 1776, where's the socialism. America embraced some socialist policies from 1933 to 1965, but it is not today a socialist country.

For those who are calling America a socialist country, it is not, not by a long shot. Just ask anyone from a country that truly does merge socialism with democracy.

But what I really want to know is how America started with socialism?

[bustedlifter]

For those who are calling America a socialist country, it is not, not by a long shot. Just ask anyone from a country that truly does merge socialism with democracy.

?

Like the French , the Germans or the Brits ? Their countries are real powerhouses on the international scene, not really. Ask people who lived behind the "iron curtain" about the direction they see our country going in. Oh, by the way, the United States is a representative republic not a democracy.

[electrathon]

Now I need you to defend this statement. How did America begin with socialism? It was private trading businesses from day one. In fact, it first tried to enslave Native-Americans to do the work, and by 1619 started using the transatlantic slave trade. This was coupled with indentured servitude, which is still with us today in curious ways. If you intend to go only as far back as 1776, where's the socialism. America embraced some socialist policies from 1933 to 1965, but it is not today a socialist country.

For those who are calling America a socialist country, it is not, not by a long shot. Just ask anyone from a country that truly does merge socialism with democracy.

But what I really want to know is how America started with socialism?

I was going a lot farther back than 1776. I ment in the beginning, the early pioneer times. It has been a long time since I was in school, but this is pretty well known. They were all working togeather for the good of the comunity, farming, raising crops, and whatever else early settler life consisted of. They did very poorly. Someplace a few years into this, someone came up with the idea of allowing each person to farm their own land, keep what they wanted and sell the rest. The process worked out well.

Also, America is not a democracy, it is a republic.

[esantoro]

Like the French , the Germans or the Brits ? Their countries are real powerhouses on the international scene, not really. Ask people who lived behind the "iron curtain" about the direction they see our country going in. Oh, by the way, the United States is a representative republic not a democracy.

Yes, it is a representative republic, but "democracy" has become shorthand for that.

The U.S. is a military powerhouse hands down. A commercial/consuming powerhouse, too. The highest standard of living? No. The healthiest? No. The happiest? No. The most unwittingly propagandized? Yes.

If military power is the only criterion to be a powerhouse, then you are correct. But Americans pay for that military power with very little in return. And that military power for the past eight years has been more of a burden than a benefit.

http://www.uni-muenster.de/PeaCon/global-t...stein-eagle.htm

When you add in factors other than military power, the U.S. rarely if ever ranks in the top 7 countries.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/best.html

For six years I lived in and traveled around Eastern Europe, that place that was once behind the iron curtain, and met many people who love their home country and would never think of immigrating to America. If America comes up, it is as a place to make money and then return home. America is seen as a financial clearing house, which is not very flattering.

None of this is to say I don't appreciate my country. But America and Americans need a serious reality check. The last thirty years have been a delusional ride that was charged to credit.

The one nice thing about America is that it used to be open to honest self-examination.

The U.S. has less social mobility than most other developed countries.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0428-01.htm

These things should be part of the national discussion, not ignored as if they do not exist. Britain did the same thing, ignore its shortcomings as it was losing its position as the world's most powerful country throughout the first half of the twentieth century. The U.S. by default and two World Wars became the dominant country after World War II but was already beginning to lose that position in the 1970s. Now there is talk of China being the most powerful. Holding on to the mantle of the most powerful nation for 25 years after it had landed in your lap is no great feat. You'd think the U.S. would have been able to hold that position for at least a century.

Edited May 30, 2009 by esantoro

[bustedlifter]

Yes, it is a representative republic, but "democracy" has become shorthand for that.

No. it's still a representative republic although there are quite a few who would like to change it.

When you add in factors other than military power, the U.S. rarely if ever ranks in the top 7 countries.

Says who? Some survey from a socialist county(ies)?

http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/best.html

For six years I lived in and traveled around Eastern Europe, that place that was once behind the iron curtain, and met many people who love their home country and would never think of immigrating to America. If America comes up, it is as a place to make money and then return home. America is seen as a financial clearing house, which is not very flattering.

Because they see where this country is heading.

Edited May 30, 2009 by bustedlifter

[esantoro]

The surveys are international surveys. I'm sure whatever office they came out of was not in the U.S. But by that criterion we also can't accept any survey coming out of the U.S. either. For the record, I would argue that many of the international surveys take a more holistic view of a country's pros and cons. The happiest country, supposedly, is Denmark, but then one Danish journalist challenged that with the statistic that Denmark has the second highest suicide rate in Europe.

The U.S.'s reputation has been in decline around the world, but these countries are also seeing greater employment opportunity at home, or at least were a year or so ago.

Even Eastern Europeans who went to England for work are returning home for better employment opportunities. I guess that's the same with Chinese expatriates as well.

My own little theory is that economic prosperity of the last 20 or so years was built on a house of cards. But as long as everyone was deluded they rode the artificial tide and felt financial growth. For the next 20 or so years we are forced to deal with real economics and values, which is good. But I wonder how well other countries will turn out having to deal with an America that has to play by authentic numbers. Let's say The U.S. hits full economic recovery by the end of 2010, Europe could take an additional five, as its infrastructure isn't as flexible as the U.S.'s

I was going to post some info about national debt, but was surprised to find out that compared to a handful of other countries, the U.S. has a credit tab of 60% of its GNP. Italy and some African countries have debt over 100 percent of GNP. These were 2007 figures.

At one time, Americans were encouraged to learn Russian because it was thought that that's where the growth was going to be. Didn't happen. Then they said Japanese. Didn't happen. Now they say Chinese. Maybe this also won't happen.

Like the French , the Germans or the Brits ? Their countries are real powerhouses on the international scene, not really. Ask people who lived behind the "iron curtain" about the direction they see our country going in. Oh, by the way, the United States is a representative republic not a democracy.

Yes, it is a representative republic, but "democracy" has become shorthand for that.

The U.S. is a military powerhouse hands down. A commercial/consuming powerhouse, too. The highest standard of living? No. The healthiest? No. The happiest? No. The most unwittingly propagandized? Yes.

If military power is the only criterion to be a powerhouse, then you are correct. But Americans pay for that military power with very little in return. And that military power for the past eight years has been more of a burden than a benefit.

http://www.uni-muenster.de/PeaCon/global-t...stein-eagle.htm

When you add in factors other than military power, the U.S. rarely if ever ranks in the top 7 countries.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/best.html

For six years I lived in and traveled around Eastern Europe, that place that was once behind the iron curtain, and met many people who love their home country and would never think of immigrating to America. If America comes up, it is as a place to make money and then return home. America is seen as a financial clearing house, which is not very flattering.

None of this is to say I don't appreciate my country. But America and Americans need a serious reality check. The last thirty years have been a delusional ride that was charged to credit.

The one nice thing about America is that it used to be open to honest self-examination.

The U.S. has less social mobility than most other developed countries.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0428-01.htm

These things should be part of the national discussion, not ignored as if they do not exist. Britain did the same thing, ignore its shortcomings as it was losing its position as the world's most powerful country throughout the first half of the twentieth century. The U.S. by default and two World Wars became the dominant country after World War II but was already beginning to lose that position in the 1970s. Now there is talk of China being the most powerful. Holding on to the mantle of the most powerful nation for 25 years after it had landed in your lap is no great feat. You'd think the U.S. would have been able to hold that position for at least a century.

[Hilly]

As with my lamp fix, smelting lead, dremel resuscitation, and various other experiments, I can't seem to let this one go either.

It seems to me that civilization has been the progression of power changing hands from the physically, thus biologically, stronger to the physically/ biologically weaker.

Let's pick a CEO at random and a steelworker at random for an all-out brawl and place our bets. It seems that this is what the stock market does but with the advantaged reversed.

All living organisms have a finite lifespan. It seems to me that the pinnacle of human existence was reached when the physically, biologically powerful started losing out in the race, which was a sign of physiological decrepitude in the human race. Assuming early forms of humans existed 400,000 years ago, I say we have no more than 100,000 years left in us. I would further argue, even as a connoisseur of technology and not a Luddite , that the rise of technological technology has actually been a signal of the onslaught of this decrepitude -- like bacteria in a petri dish shitting all over itself and dying out amid the waste.

It seems that this thread has veered off-topic and should be placed in its respective category. Not true.

Death and taxes. Death and taxes.

Wow, Ed! That was..................................deep.

[claybuster101]

"The U.S. has less social mobility than most other developed countries."

Social mobility? While those 2 words can take on a broad meaning, I recall my most recent extended trip to Europe and crossing into Switzerland. I was driving a new Opel with Duetschland plates. The border crossing security service were carrying fully automatic weapons ready to extinguish any threat they encountered. Good for them! While travel among the EU has drastically improved over the last decade or so, can you imagine if crossing from state to state here in the US the National Guard or Blackwater forces were checking for people who didn't belong and took decisive action when they found someone?

But as soon as this would happen the ACLU and other liberal rights orgs would be crying foul.

Since the time of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, a sector of our nations population who have been born into welfare, continued to live on welfare, fostered children (many times with as many number of different sperm donors) into welfare. The system has been abused and yet this group of people are the ones who support the hands that feed them. I shouldn't have to mention the word Democrat here, but I will so there is no confusion. The most recent statistic is that teenage pregnancy is on the rise. Fostering more Democrats for generations to come.

You mention education, specifically in Germany. You failed to mention that they have little or no welfare as we know it here in the United States. The idea of trade school or university goes back several generations well prior to WW2. The Germans by and large are a very proud people. They do not put up with filth, petty theft and the assorted crap that we as Americans have come to ignore but it is a common everyday occurence. So when you make comparisions, try to at least show the larger picture so the people who read this can draw a educated conclusion.

While all this banter could go on forever, only time will tell how the dust will settle. The goverment has forced the auto companies into non-competitivness, to submit to such an extreme that the cancer the goverment has injected into our manufacturing sector will festor for generations. Fair trade for US manufacturers is not fair trade at all, and has not been for sometime.

If you thought George W was in bed with the oil companies, just wait....you will no doubt see multiple menage-a-trois's with King Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Feinstein, Levin, Stabenow etc. So much so, it will make anything George W did look like a handholding instead of a full blown goverment orgy.