Social security and medicare taxes for small business owners

[esantoro]

I think that is a major part of the answer, almost prophetic. The American people now feel entitled to things they did not earn and can not afford. This debt brings everyone down. If people would live within their means, we would all have more.

When you were in Europe, did you see people living beyone their means like people do here? Was it even possible to live outside your means like it is here?

I was in Europe from 1998 to 2004. I didn't really see people living beyond their means, though I sensed this was changing, as American-type consumerism was getting more and more of a stronghold. Time, for the most part, was spent with other people, not buying things or thinking about what to buy. Most people were of similar economic means. There was not a great disparity between the financial elites of the city and the rest. I spent my time mixing with both.

There was, though, a sense that the financially better off were very secure in their positions and that social class was understood, accepted, rationalized, was just there. nothing to be done about it. No place is perfect, but there was much less restlessness there than here.

My goal is to maintain a European consciousness and lifestyle with American means. Working with leather is a good focal point for that kind of life. It makes one focus on experience rather than consuming beyond the ordinary. There's less need to consume, because the leather has you obsessed. When you're out doing other things, it is your current project in leather that is on your mind. And when you're working the leather, you are the country club, you are Gucci, you are Swaine Adeney Brigg, you are Madison Avenue, you are the Brooklyn Bridge. Put simply, you are trucking with the gods.

One of the things that made it possible and rather easy not to live beyond one's means is that one is not bombarded by images of a future, better life, an always receding promise. That bombardment is much easier in LA or NYC, but not in the rural countryside where you still see hay carts drawn by cart horses and senior citizens riding bicycles.

I think there is a happy medium between socialism and capitalism. Capitalism taken too far encourages a self-imposed slave system with not a single master, yet with discipline one could carve out a secure place. Universal health care would nearly make this incredibly easy, and on some level conservatives know this. They know that with universal healthcare, Nos. 1-4 could be very happy becoming philosophers and not Wal-Mart greeters. Social climbers would have to ask themselves what is all the climbing really for.

The way I see it is that No. 10 gets his wealth only if people are reaching beyond their means. He needs to make sure they keep reaching. That's why he needs 1-4 getting handouts at the table. It keeps 5-9 reaching. It is these mechanisms I did not see in Europe, and it felt easier to breathe there (I would think even for a No.10) though I sense this is changing. But it can also swing back the other way, which I think is more possible there than here. But I suppose the same could be done here. It just takes a discipline that seems foreign. _The Truman Show_ is a little talked about film that digs to the heart of this matter, that illustrates the propaganda mechanisms that keep people tied to the treadmill. The film is superb if you cut out the final two minutes -- leave Truman at the wall. Just leave him there. Audiences would have been disturbed even more than they were with the close of _The Sopranos_.

Maybe our European members could weigh in on this to see if I'm missing something.

Ed

[electrathon]

Universal health care would nearly make this incredibly easy, and on some level conservatives know this. They know that with universal healthcare, Nos. 1-4 could be very happy becoming philosophers and not Wal-Mart greeters.

Exactly. It is far easier to live off the ever flowing nipple than to work for what you get. The nipple provides just enough to keep you from supporting yourself.

Historicly, America started out as socialist. People were starving to death. They switched to a capitalist system and very soon, there was plenty. This was a long time ago.

[esantoro]

Exactly. It is far easier to live off the ever flowing nipple than to work for what you get. The nipple provides just enough to keep you from supporting yourself.

Historicly, America started out as socialist. People were starving to death. They switched to a capitalist system and very soon, there was plenty. This was a long time ago.

But what's wrong with a few more philosophers and artists and a few fewer Wall-Mart greeters and fast-food register jockeys? And workers who put in a 40-hour week, wherever they work, should be paid a livable wage that includes or allows the purchase of healthcare.

[bustedlifter]

With Single Payer Insurance, business, small or otherwise, would see a huge boost to their bottom line. Seems like common sense to me. 15% tax would then seem like a bargain....

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free. Check out how a lot of countries with "free" health care have to ration out meds or the waiting list for simple tests or procedures if they get done at all. It's IMPOSSIBLE to budget how much money would be needed for health care in a fiscal year because there are so many variables. Just think about how many people would run to the doctor, for any little reason, because it's "free". If the government is the sole health care provider then they OWN you. I think it's a control thing rather than the government having your best interest in mind. As usual, anytime the government gets involved in something they have no business being in,they bugger it up.

[bustedlifter]

But what's wrong with a few more philosophers and artists and a few fewer Wall-Mart greeters and fast-food register jockeys? And workers who put in a 40-hour week, wherever they work, should be paid a livable wage that includes or allows the purchase of healthcare.

Who should decide what a livable wage is? The government already tells business the minimum it can pay. If $7.75 an hour is good, why not raise it to $15.00 an hour. Why stop there? Raise it to $50.00 an hour and everybody would make a decent living wage. Maybe throw in mandatory 8 weeks paid vacation a year,too.

[claybuster101]

The old saying goes, "be careful what you wish for, because it might just come true!" Rush Limbaugh made the comment that the Republican party is extinct. While most everyone wanted changes this past election, those who voted for Barack Hussein Obama may not have realized that along with his savoir-faire demeanor came a whole lot of excess baggage in the form of old Clinton cronies. What change is that? One step forward and two steps back? I am not here to alienate fellow craftspeople who may not share in the opinions expressed. But, as a business person I am dissapointed that the future generations are left to wonder why they should work hard when it may be for nothing. I enjoy the fruits of my life's labors. Comfortable home, cabin in the woods, the boat docked at the marina, the constitutional right to bear arms and the freedom to make decisions (not all have been winner's by the way).

It was an interesting conversation with two of our sons when they found out they were on opposite sides of the politcal fence for president. It was like an episode of "Point-counter-Point" times 10. Mom and I just looked at each other and since they have out grown beating the crap out of one-another physically, we let them have at.

The "trade union" son, wanted change. He wasn't happy about the war in the Gulf, but on the other hand conceded that a strong military is needed to protect the US. Now, he indicates that in his latest monthly "union" newsletter they are "concerned" over Husseins agenda and are asking everyone to write their Congressmen/women and Senators to "voice" their concerns. What, they didn't see that coming?

The law enforcement son sees the weakening of our borders and the issues surrounding "illegals" here in SE Michigan as a very local threat. But try going to any, and I mean any local emergency room....Your insurance doesn't buy you a better seat. You still wait and wait and wait to been seen. In the meantime, many people who have no legal right to be in this country are seen by the same doctors and nurses...but guess what? The hardworking people, who made sacrifices along the way to have the means to pay for their care also are paying for everyone else. I'm done.

[bustedlifter]

I agree claybuster101. The government has gone way beyond what is constitutional.

[esantoro]

Who should decide what a livable wage is? The government already tells business the minimum it can pay. If $7.75 an hour is good, why not raise it to $15.00 an hour. Why stop there? Raise it to $50.00 an hour and everybody would make a decent living wage. Maybe throw in mandatory 8 weeks paid vacation a year,too.

Certain compromises can be made. Certainly $50 is not an issue. Mandatory vacation days would be nice but not necessary. With a reasonable working wage, people would be able to take unpaid time off if desired. The situation is never either or, as compromises can always be made.

I think the $5.25 minimum wage was set in the 1960's. Why on earth hasn't it been adjusted in the last 48 years. It hasn't been adjusted because the people it would benefit most don't vote, which doesn't mean neglecting to adjust the wage is the right thing to do, as other problems occur that affect all of us.

Who was it who artificially inflated housing values up to 100 percent for the last thirty years? Government or private business? The answer probably is a bit of both, but with the lobbying of the bankers. There is no proof that private industry runs anything better than the government does. There is evidence of success and failure for both. Without the lobbying interests of private business, government would run differently. If we changed the ways politicians funded campaigns, they would not need to beg for contributions.

To say that a government that bends over backwards for business does not work is not the same as saying that government does not work. Good government works. Good business works. Good business is not accountable to the people, save that people vote with their dollars. But that's not he same as journalists and the people covering government's every step and forcing government to make the necessary change. It's easier to force government to change -- that is a government that's not in the pockets of big business -- than it is to force Microsoft to make a better operating system. Just because people are paying for Microsoft Windows does not mean that it is the best product out there. All of us non-mac users could easily switch to Linux.

[esantoro]

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free. Check out how a lot of countries with "free" health care have to ration out meds or the waiting list for simple tests or procedures if they get done at all. It's IMPOSSIBLE to budget how much money would be needed for health care in a fiscal year because there are so many variables. Just think about how many people would run to the doctor, for any little reason, because it's "free". If the government is the sole health care provider then they OWN you. I think it's a control thing rather than the government having your best interest in mind. As usual, anytime the government gets involved in something they have no business being in,they bugger it up.

The irony is that we end up already paying as much as Europeans do and get much less. In this regard, we are a nation of suckers who lack the spines to make government put big business in its place. The only winners are insurance companies who care less about people than the government does.

Weaken the government and increase the reach of big business and this is what you get:

From a review of Thomas Frank's _The Wrecking Crew_

"Mr. Frank follows the conservative movement from the turn of the Twentieth Century through the Depression and New Deal, focusing most heavily on the movement's rebirth under Ronald Reagan and on into the new millennium. Along the way, he discusses the growth of lobbying as a major force in converting the nation's capital into a massive feeding ground for corporate special interests. Frank also highlights the manner in which conservatives have repeatedly run the country into huge spending deficits in order to "defund the left" while simultaneously politicizing government management positions by favoring ideology over competence. The end result under Republican conservative stewardship is government that demonstrates itself as ineffectual and incompetent, offering but further proof that big government is inherently incapable of working and needs to be outsourced to private, professional concerns who can do the job correctly (and then inevitably failing to do so).

"There is little good news in THE WRECKING CREW. Author Frank shows that our national government has been hollowed out under Republican conservative control, savaged into an ineffectual husk. Furthermore, he illustrates clearly that this was no mistake, that it is part of a deliberate process not just to privatize government and eradicate government regulation but to make these changes permanent by destroying the liberal left (and with it, of course, the Democratic Party). Frank demonstrates well that present day politics has truly become, to invert von Clausiwitz's famous maxim, "a continuation of war by other means." Regrettably, one side of the battle continues to play the game as politics, as elections won or lost and citizens swayed or not, while the other side approaches it as an act of war, a no-holds-barred contest in which the only goal is the complete and utter destruction of the other side.

THE WRECKING CREW is compelling and informative even as it paints a bleak picture of an America being driven rightward and increasingly toward the excesses and inequities of the pre-New Deal era. We all know how that era ended in October, 1929. "

Edited May 28, 2009 by esantoro

[electrathon]

Certain compromises can be made. Certainly $50 is not an issue. Mandatory vacation days would be nice but not necessary. With a reasonable working wage, people would be able to take unpaid time off if desired. The situation is never either or, as compromises can always be made.

I think the $5.25 minimum wage was set in the 1960's. Why on earth hasn't it been adjusted in the last 48 years. It hasn't been adjusted because the people it would benefit most don't vote, which doesn't mean neglecting to adjust the wage is the right thing to do, as other problems occur that affect all of us.

The statement that minimum wage has not been raised since the 60's is so far wrong it makes me doubt every fact that you have listed.

I am not sure about everyplace, but in 1978 when I got my first job the minimum wage was $2.85 and hour.

Living wage means much differant things to differant people. That term is just a slur that the unions have started throwing around to try to get more. I agree with what was said above. I could live comfortably on $50 an hour. Of course, once I get that, I will want more, then I will want more, then I will complain about the evil greedy people that do not pay me $75 an hour, so I could have a living wage.

The irony is that we end up already paying as much as Europeans do and get much less. In this regard, we are a nation of suckers who lack the spines to make government put big business in its place. The only winners are insurance companies who care less about people than the government does.

Actually two differant issues are involved here. First is the greed of the 4 people that are eating at the table for free. They "deserve" the same as those that work. The level of care that we currently expect in America is not the same as the level that many are recieving in socialist countries. There is a reason so many Canadians willingly flood across our boarder to get health care, they can get it. There is not waiting list, there is not rationing of service. It is available now, not in 6 weeks. I have an aunt that lives near the boarder, the come into their office all the time.

Another differance is here we hold Dr's acountable for malpractice. Want to drop the cost? Take away the acountability. It has worked well in other countries. The Dr's can literally cut the cost of service nearly in half when they no longer have insurance premiums that are 5 times most Americans income.

One other issue to remember in all of this. There is not a business in the country that has ever paid a single penny in taxes, fees or whatever. 100% of those have all been passed on to the consumers, just in a hidden form.