Defective Knife Sheath Kills man at Rendezvous

[ArcherBen]

This serves as a sobering reminder to all of us to think through the safetly aspects of a design before building.

Fatal stabbing was accidental

May 28th, 2009 @ 7:35am

HYRUM, Utah (AP) -- The Cache County sheriff's office says the stabbing death of a Wyoming man during a mountain man rendezvous over the weekend in northern Utah was an accident.

Cache County sheriff's Lt. Matt Bilodeau says 33-year-old Tim Andrus, of La Barge, Wyo., was accidentally killed when his own knife pierced his chest while he was wrestling with an acquaintance at the Old Ephraim's Mountain Man Rendezvous in Blacksmith Fork Canyon.

Reports say the homemade knife entered Andrus' body at a 45-degree angle, penetrating his heart. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

Investigators say Andrus also had a defective over-the-shoulder sheath for the knife.

Bilodeau says the incident didn't happen during an official rendezvous activity. ------

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6630516

[Jim]

Enough cannot be said about safety.

[UKRay]

The safety aspect of sheath building probably doesn't occur to most people, outside of the obvious stopping the blade from cutting things it shouldn't.

What do you feel are the important things to consider when building a sheath?

Ray

[TwinOaks]

A sad, unfortunate accident.

Not only is the sheath design to be considered, but also any activities in which the wearer may engage.

Though the sheath was described as "defective", which could lead to serious problems for the maker, I have to wonder if there was simply enough force involved to destroy the sheath. After all, it says the two men were wrestling. I don't know of anyone who makes over the shoulder sheaths to be used during wrestling matches. There's more to this story than what's being told, I think.

[UKRay]

The circumstances are certainly very unfortunate but how could anyone design a sheath that was proof against all events. The report claims that the sheath was defective - okay but IMHO that could mean almost anything.

My big concern is that anyone who makes a knife sheath could now be held responsible if that sheath is involved in an incident and deemed defective by a police officer.

So what are the criteria for effective? Who is setting out the rules?

This guy was wrestling whilst wearing a knife. Do we need to specify that the sheath we make is not suitable for wearing whilst wrestling? The guy who made the 'defective' sheath is possibly facing all kinds of harrassment from relatives and police but is it his fault the poor guy died? I don't think so... unless maybe the dead guy made his own sheath.

[Jordan]

Sad thing for all concerned, I am struck by two things, first, it seems the last few incidents with weapons happened here (Utah) ie. accidental restaurant discharge of a gun, an equally disturbing shooting of a toilet and now a knife death. And second, The article does state the knife was homemade, so chances are the sheath was also. It behooves everyone to consider both public and personal safety whenever and wherever potentially dangerous tools are carried or used. I agree that the details are sketchy and perhaps more than meets the eye is in play here.

[Ian]

I've seen some pretty rough looking sheathes used in mountain man and Native American regalia - often just thin leather folded and laced down one side. I'm thinking that most sheaths made of heavy veg tan and made with a welt, where the knife fits snugly and the stitching is re-inforced with rivets would prevent the knife from going beyond the guard and be safe for most normal activities - but wrestling with a sharp knife in a flimsy sheath wouldn't count as a normal activity. Sad though, none-the-less.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Ian

[TexasJack]

I don't know - I might file this under Darwin Awards. Didn't his mother tell him to be careful with sharp, pointy things? I love the way the story reads - like the knife jumped out and did the deed and the two idiots wrestling had nothing to do with it.

A friend made a great knife for a soldier going over to the Sandbox. The sheath was not structured for such a solid knife and cut through it. As I recall, damages included: the seat of a Humvee, a pair of Kevlar gloves, a boot, some socks, and a large portion of the soldier's hand when he reached in his bag and discovered the knife had come loose in transit.

Chuck Burrows makes sheaths and other leather goods for these type of events and I suspect you won't find many 'failures' among them. There's something to be said for making quality products.

And don't run with scissors....

[Suze]

From the non'knife carrying woman here (swiss army knife aside)

I would think that just about any sheath would fail if you fell on the handle "just right"

sad to say but a Darwin for sure

but I agree I have seen some at Ren Fairs that look like tissue paper.

[UKRay]

"...shooting of a toilet."

I didn't know toilets were in season! Do you need a special permit?

[Jordan]

Apparently all that is needed is a holster that loses it's weapon when you hitch up yer drawers after mother natures call.

[UKRay]

Whoooeee - you wouldn't want that happening in the next cubicle!

[LazyDave]

Looks like theres more to it than meets the eye here! Oh Please!!!

Some guy dies with his own knife in his chest after wrestling with a friend while wearing a homemade knife in a shoulder holster, which a police officer says was defective, does not make a case for everyone who sells or makes a knife sheath immediately being responsible under law for this or any other idiots demise.

I don't take anything from this article except the fact someone died foolishly. I don't think this will cause anyone anymore headaches about their responsibility in making knife sheaths than they already have.

Just my AU1.44/100 cents

Lazy Dave

[UKRay]

Looks like theres more to it than meets the eye here! Oh Please!!!

Some guy dies with his own knife in his chest after wrestling with a friend while wearing a homemade knife in a shoulder holster, which a police officer says was defective, does not make a case for everyone who sells or makes a knife sheath immediately being responsible under law for this or any other idiots demise.

I don't take anything from this article except the fact someone died foolishly. I don't think this will cause anyone anymore headaches about their responsibility in making knife sheaths than they already have.

Just my AU1.44/100 cents

Lazy Dave

Interesting contribution, Dave. I'm glad common sense prevails 'down under' because it certainly doesn't in other parts of the world. We had a couple of crazy people kill folk with handguns and the next thing we knew it became virtually impossible to own a handgun in the UK. Gangland knife attacks were in the news for a few weeks and suddenly we are banned from carrying knives. Sorry mate - you are welcome to your opinion but in this instance you can only speak for your neck of the woods. I'm just pleased for you that Australia is such a liberal country. We don't share that luxury here in the UK.

I agree entirely that the common sense view of this story says the guy should have had more sense and it was entirely his own fault. The trigger words for me were 'defective sheath'. WE live in a litigious society where blame always has to be apportioned if something goes wrong. If the sheath was defective and is proved to be so it sets a legal precedent for future cases of this kind. Every time some fool falls on a knife and cuts himself the efficacy of the sheath will be called into question. I find this something of a worry as it could be me facing a jury charged with manslaughter.

You obviously live in a place where people are fair and reasonable at all times and nobody is ever accused of anything as silly as this. Hopefully the lawyers are kind, gentle folk who would never try to pass the stupidity buck onto a hapless maker of leathergoods.

Perhaps Australia should be renamed Utopia? Where do I buy my ticket?

[tonyc1]

Lets hope that we stay that way here in Australia instead of becoming as litigious as some other parts of the world.

Tony.

[MickWoolnough]

You obviously live in a place where people are fair and reasonable at all times and nobody is ever accused of anything as silly as this. Hopefully the lawyers are kind, gentle folk who would never try to pass the stupidity buck onto a hapless maker of leathergoods.

Perhaps Australia should be renamed Utopia? Where do I buy my ticket?

I think your reply is a wee bit over the top UK

I think what Ray was saying is you cant be libel for someones gross stupidity..it would have to be death by accidental actions

Mick

[UKRay]

I think your reply is a wee bit over the top UK

I think what Ray was saying is you cant be libel for someones gross stupidity..it would have to be death by accidental actions

Mick

Mick, I wish you were right. Sadly you can be held liable for someone else's stupidity and lots of folk find themselves in court every year for just that reason.

Let me give you an example or two:

A couple of years back a guy took a canoe without permission from an outdoor centre whilst drunk. he paddled it down the river and was found drowned the following morning. The centre was found to be guilty of negligence - essentially leaving their doors open so the fool could steal the canoe... they were eventually forced to shut down because they couldn't afford to fight the legal battle instigated by the dead guy's relatives.

Two lads 'borrowed' a friend's motorcycle without permission, rode it down the road into a tree. One died and the other was badly injured. The dead kid's parents sued the 19 year old owner of the motorcycle for lending them the bike. He was so upset by the legal wrangles that he became depressed and committed suicide.

Finally, and hopefully amusingly, check this out: http://madmouser.wordpress.com/2007/01/21/...-herd/#comments Okay - it may be an urban legend, but there are far too many stories just like this to take into account when you run a business making anything.

Yes, I accept I was slightly over the top in my response to Dave's post and apologise if I have caused any offense to anyone but the fact remains that we live in a society that likes to blame someone else for it's stupidity - and that someone could be me or you!

I rest my case m'lud.

Ray

[Jordan]

or the one about the burglar that sued a homeowner for shooting him in the foot. It seems that since the thief fell out of the window after being shot the jury felt the shooting was not justified as the creep was surely trying to run away and was not a threat. Moral of the story... if the bum falls out the window pull him back in and shoot him again so he can't sue you!

[Art]

They're open season around here, as long as you don't bait 'em.

Art

I didn't know toilets were in season! Do you need a special permit?

[grumpyguy]

Unfortunate accident for sure. But I, for one, will refrain from saying anything derogitory about the poor victim. True it's not wise to wrestle around with a knife strapped to you. I once had a knife come out the side of a commercially produce sheath. I had finished skinning a bear that a friend had harvested and tagged. I simply placed the knife back in it's sheath and pushed it down. The friend pointed out the mishap as I stoodup prepareing to help haul the animal out of the woods. The blade which was very sharp had gone through the outside of the sheath and was exposed, sticking out ready to slice what ever got too close. The leather was about 10oz. latigo and was sold with the knife when I bought it. Constructed with a nice heavy welt by the way. Only thing I could figure was that some how it caught on the leather and I did not look but just pushed it in as I had done many times before. This time it apparantly came out the side of the sheath exposing about three inches of bare and very sharp blade.

I used to carry that knife while on horseback. No more, I only carry folding knives when engaged in more physical activities where there is a risk of falling or having something fall on me. Truth is we cut leather all the time (so we should know how easy a knife can cut though leather) and really if enough force is applied to a knife handle it can cut though our best heavy leather sheath. A fall could easily provide enough force, so this should make us all think twice when wearing/handling cutlery. Incidently I had a butcher friend who sliced his arm when his 10" steak knife pierced out the front of his metal scabbard and he did not see it.

Unfortunately our world has changed, reason often doesn't win out in the beginning or the end.

[Jim]

The safety aspect of sheath building probably doesn't occur to most people, outside of the obvious stopping the blade from cutting things it shouldn't.

What do you feel are the important things to consider when building a sheath?

Ray

WELTS!!!!!! Put Welts in the Seam . . . . . ALWAYS!!!!!!!

Make the sheath tight enough to hold the blade secure . . . . ALWAYS!!!!!

If they need more help . . . . read my book!

[AussieLee]

I might not know anything about sheath building or leather work, but I feel rather comfortable with my big 'I can stab you pretty badly' knife secured to my hip or thigh. I know I wouldn't feel comfortable with a knife attached anywhere near my chest, nor near an area which it could easily penetrate and cause a bleed out.

[JohnBarton]

Or how about the story of the bar owner who was charged with and convicted of manslaughter when he electrified the window and a thief tried to break in and got stuck and suffered a heart attack from the electrical shock.