Straight Cantle Bindings

[jwwright]

We had a great discussion of ideas a little while back about cheyenne roll bindings. I was curious as to everyone's thoughts on straight cantle bindings, or pencil roll, or finger roll........what ever they are called in your part of the world. Specifically 2 things.............do you always use a filler on your straight binds, or just the cantle back, seat and binding cover? If you do generally use a filler, do you put it in seat side, or cantle back side? Thus far, I've done it several ways, and am trying to sort out what method I like best. Also, rawhide on straight bindings........pros and cons? Thanks for your throughts.

[mulefool]

What is the difference between a pencil roll and a finger roll? I haven't heard either of these terms. As far as the filler I put it on the front. It's just how I learned. But if there might be a good reason to do it on the back of the cantle I could be talked out of it.

[Bob]

We had a great discussion of ideas a little while back about cheyenne roll bindings. I was curious as to everyone's thoughts on straight cantle bindings, or pencil roll, or finger roll........what ever they are called in your part of the world. Specifically 2 things.............do you always use a filler on your straight binds, or just the cantle back, seat and binding cover? If you do generally use a filler, do you put it in seat side, or cantle back side? Thus far, I've done it several ways, and am trying to sort out what method I like best. Also, rawhide on straight bindings........pros and cons? Thanks for your throughts.

JW, it's called a pencil roll around these parts.... I always use a plug on this binding. for several reasons.

Firstly, when the cantle back goes on, it's higher than needs to be, then after cutting a strap 5/8 or 3/4 with a draw knife, it's straight. Then I glue it on top of the edge of the cantle and trim the cantle back off flush with the plug i just glued down, thats how i get it straight with the wood. Then once the seat is glued down, it's trimmed off to match the cantle back. Therefore the plug or filler is between the two.

The second main reason is the binding looks more substanial or beefy, stronger. On the pencil bindings a person can use a heavy binding too. If you don't mind working at it. you can put in 7 - 9 oz binding. Thats what I aim for. Further more, if you wanted to scallop the back edge, the heavy binding is less likely to curl up on the scallops, also if your into hiding the stitches, you will require a heavier binding anyway.

[bruce johnson]

JW,

I haven't done a ton of these either. I was taught to put my fillers on the back, probably doesn't matter a whole lot once you have the reasons set in your mind? The last Cheyenne roll I did, I put it on the front and got a pretty good break. That was prior to the Cheyenne roll discussion, and I have some new fish to fry on the next couple after ythat discussion. Rawhide bindings are one of those things guys like or hate. Some guys can keep them intact. Others will wear and abrade laying under the gooseneck on the flatbed. Then the weather will eat them.

I was shown a few years ago to put a strip of heavy skirting on from the back the width of the crimp depth. Glue it in place, secure it with a running stitch, and put the binding over that. The backside stitching lays right in the channel under that little lip. It gives you a little ridge to catch the fingers into if you are a saddle lifter and not a slinger. Makes kind of a cute little lip and look. I am not sure if it is a finger roll, pencil roll, or what. I am thinking those terms could stand some explainin'.

I would also like to expand on this and have some guys explain how they do a blind stitch. I had one of Ryan Cope's over here, and it was about as good a job as it gets. Very clean and no marks evident.

[jwwright]

Mule.........I really don't know that there is a difference in finger roll or pencil roll or straight binding. From here, south to Texas it is most often referred to as a finger roll. Me, I've always called it a straight bind.

Bob and Bruce........great ideas, as always, Many Thanks. I am working on a wade with a straight bind currently, and this gives me more to chew cud on. JW

[kseidel]

Around here, pencil rolls and finger rolls refer to the shape on the edge of your hat brim!

Straight up cantle bindings have a tendency to "curl" forward into the riders seat. It is important to keep the bound edge straight up all around the edge of the cantle. If you do not use a plug and secure it to the cantle, the thicker and firmer leather of the seat will pull the binding forward over time. I use a firm strip of about 8 oz. leather glued and nailed to the back of the cantle. I leave about 3/4 to 1 inch below the edge of the cantle and skive to a smooth transition an the cantle back. Then shape it tight to the top edge keeping the front edge in the center of the cantle edge. (lots of edges in that sentence) Then put the cantle back on. I find it easier to trim to desired width after the cantle back is in place. When the seat is glued into place, break the seat over the top of the cantle and crimp it tightly to the back and filler this should leave a depression where your seat folds back over the tree before extending straight up around the shape of the cantle. This depression will allow your binding thickness to fit without protruding into the plane of the seat. The plane of the seat should then follow out to the edge of the cantle binding.

I like to use about 10 oz leather for my cantle bindings. I do not care for rawhide on straight bindings because the rawhide continues to shrink and over time will pull the edge into the seat. I have also found that rawhide wears out faster than leather.

Keith

[greg gomersall]

I was taught that when talking about saddles there were 2 places for rawhide. The first was on the tree the second was on the cow. I agree with Keith that it will wear out faster than leather and also due to the fact it NEVER quits shrinking it will pull and eventually cut the stitches. If you look back on history few if any of the legendary makers used rawhide bindings. In the last 25 years society has decided that due to the phrase "Rawhide Tough" we have assumed that means on everything. On some items given the proper care it is great stuff but on any exposed saddle parts it is a mistake. I will do it if a customer insists but I due my dangest to dissuade them. Greg

[wyoming]

I have to agree that rawhide doesn't belong on a cantle. I tell customers that you never see an old saddle with a rawhide binding, they don't last. I am replacing one right now that someone insisted on, that is probably only about fifteen years old. The rawhide had shrunk and all the stitches were ripped out. John

[jwwright]

Thanks for your thoughts Keith, Greg and Wyoming. Keith, mostly around this part of the world, most hats are in some form of taco shape, maybe tater chip........not many amish looking ufo lids to be seen. That's a friendly joke, hope all have a sense of humor.

Really good ideas on the fillers for straight binds, and the opinions on rawhide binding confirm what my thoughts have always been. Thanks again fellers. JW

[kseidel]

JW, A pencil roll on a taco brim.... Hmm. That would be a way to make it even more "unique." Ha Ha. You must be from around West Texas.? Keith

[jwwright]

Ha!..........Keith sometimes my taco hats do develop somewhat of a pencil roll after a few years.........makes them even more areodynamically effective! I cowboyed in quite a few differing regions, and worked with puncher and buckaroo types, and most every hybrid in between. We settled in the ranch country here in the Flint Hills of Kansas quite a few years ago, and like it just fine. However, you are correct.........I'm most definitely a west Texan always at heart. I appreciate all your saddle wisdom. JW

[TroyWest]

I agree that rawhide wears out faster on binders and I just tell 'em I don't do that anymore. I do a lot of straight binders and I like to do a hidden stitch. It's clean, it looks good, and you can actually sew faster because you don't have to have those back stitches perfectly placed because they are hidden. The saddle I'm building right now has a hidden stitch. I take my binder down on my bandknife to about a 10oz., fit it on my tree, take it off and flatten it on my bench with my glass slicker. I've tried this several ways but I like best to use my round knife. Lay the binder on the edge of the bench and run my knife lightly down the middle of the back edge of the binder. Then I do it again going a little deeper each time til I have it the depth I want it. I like it to be 1/4" to 3/8" or so. I prefer to be in the middle of the leather. If your closer to the bottom side it makes it harder to flip the top up for sewing. If you're too close to the top edge it'll flip up easy but when glued down it can show bumps where each stitch was made. Glue your binder on your saddle. I use my creaser to open that cut up. Keep the back of that binder moist so the leather will flip up to get your needles and awls past it and sew. I actually like to start in the middle and go one way, then come back and go the other way. Keeps me from having to have so much thread at a time and it seems to keep it a little cleaner. I glue it shut with rubber cement.

Rub it smooth with my rubbing stick, and then edge it with a small edger. A smooth job back there makes a saddle look really nice, and a bad job looks so bad. A big deal to me is keeping those borders accurate with your tooling.

[steveh]

Troys hidden stitch on the cantel back is a neat technique. Does anyone have methods or comments on exposed stitching on the back of cantels? I really admire clean stitching that matches the front.

[AndyKnight]

I often use a stitch groover on the back and so ensure my stitching is straight and looks good on the back. If you want you can use a stitch wheel to get your stitch length even.

I have a single groover that works well for this.

[kseidel]

For exposed stitches on the back, I use one size larger stitch pricking wheel on the back as on the front, starting in the center. I use a tickler to crease a channel for the stitches rather than cutting out the grain with a groover. I find it easier to avoid pulling the thread through the leather when pulling the stitches tight. Keith

[TroyWest]

One more thought on the exposed stitches on the back. I find I have to stick my awl thru the back hole first, without going completely thru. Then go thru the seat side and hit that back hole. You can find that back hole pretty easy and your awl will follow that premade guide hole right out the back and be accurate. Otherwise you might have a hard time hitting your stitch mark. When you don't, you can sure tell it, and so can everyone else.

Do ya'll find it amazing? I'm in Tx., Keiths in Wy., Bruce in Ca., Greg and Andy in Can., Jon in Iowa, Bob in B.C., others in Oregon, New York, South America, Spain, and Australia and wherever and were all talkin' to each other like it was next door? Amazing.

[kseidel]

Troy, It is great to get to interact with people that we only get to see every coulpe of years. Keith

[lilsiscojoe]

I really appreciate all your input. What a great site to have questions answered on. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.