Questions for the tree makers

[1horsetown]

Since I had kids: If I need to remember it, I write it down and stick it to the fridge. It's been 10+ years since I've thought about this stuff.

The trainer had some ideal of the rivets on the sides of the head and the lowest part of the seat and how they related to each other. You can't go by the height of the cantle, particularly on dressage saddles, because some of them are just plain ridiculous.

My friends' mule NEVER sweats in those dry spots. They hauled her bosom buddy out one roasting hot day. She lost her mind and ran the fence. That mule was running with sweat every where but the spots that stayed dry under the saddle. The friend hauled this mule to WI to have one of those electronic pressure sensing pads used on the mule with her new saddle and the scan came back very good. There were a few white hairs in the dry areas for a couple of years, but they've since disappeared. The mule is a sorrel.

The bareback pad to check the sweat patterns is an interesting thought. Might have to try that. I'll try riding with a looser cinch and see if that does anything. My last saddle slid all over. I got in the habit of really cinching up tight. I probably don't need to do that so much with this saddle.

I know Shorty is built a little downhill. My mindset ,due to past experiences, is--make it level. Maybe I don't need to do it as long as the ground seat will give me the freedom to somewhat choose my position?

Shorty's back doesn't look to have any unusual lumps, bumps, or bulges, at least to my inexperienced eye. Other than being wide, I don't think there's anything that unusual about it.

My current saddle is the best match so far. I feel like I have a good secure, upright position and Shorty is moving better and behaving like he's happier than he's been. The last of his white hairs disappeared this spring. But the saddle was made by a co. that specializes in endurance saddles. It's lightweight, under 25#. They did what they could to make the saddle stronger, but it's NOT a roping saddle. I would like to do a Wade for my next saddle. It'll be my largest saddle expenditure probably of my lifetime. I'm trying to figure out what's do-able and what's not.

kelly

[ccpowell]

From the Veterinary perspective, and Bruce is likely more experienced than myself, but I would love to see pictures before and after riding, and possibly after the bareback pad idea, then I may be able to offer my 2 cents (may not even be worth that much ). I would expect swelling to occur immediately or fairly soon after riding (as long as the tissue isn't too damaged to swell) and atrophy to be evident if there was severe damage from past poorly fitting saddles. Incidentally, I have trained a couple haflingers to ride for a client of mine, and they are nice little horses, and definitely can be hard to keep a saddle on. As far as dry spots are concerned, I would love to hear other opinions on this- but I have seen very good fitting saddles on horses and seen dry spots with no soreness or swelling or future white hairs- I am not convinced that they are always a sign of trouble. I have also seen horses ridden hard with good fitting saddles and good wool pads that were wet everywhere except where the saddle was- an entire blanket area dry spot! I have ridden horses before and done lots of turns and spins and direction changes, and had the shoulder area look dry when the hair was actually damp but ruffled up some when I took the saddle off, since that area tends to move more than the rest of the back under the saddle. Does this area get more air during riding due to the motion? I have used the same saddle on the same horse on long trail rides or longer days gathering big pastures with less repetitive turning and had the whole back equally wet when I pulled the saddle. I would love to hear more opinions on the dry spot issue. I owned a mare when I was a kid that bucked the previous owner off every time he rode her for 2 years, and she never bucked with me- she had swellings on her shoulders from his weight (he was a very big man) and a poor fitting saddle, and she took her revenge frequently before I got her. I think that if your horse is more comfortable, then you have made big progress already. Please post pictures if you can,

Chuck

Since I had kids: If I need to remember it, I write it down and stick it to the fridge. It's been 10+ years since I've thought about this stuff.

The trainer had some ideal of the rivets on the sides of the head and the lowest part of the seat and how they related to each other. You can't go by the height of the cantle, particularly on dressage saddles, because some of them are just plain ridiculous.

My friends' mule NEVER sweats in those dry spots. They hauled her bosom buddy out one roasting hot day. She lost her mind and ran the fence. That mule was running with sweat every where but the spots that stayed dry under the saddle. The friend hauled this mule to WI to have one of those electronic pressure sensing pads used on the mule with her new saddle and the scan came back very good. There were a few white hairs in the dry areas for a couple of years, but they've since disappeared. The mule is a sorrel.

The bareback pad to check the sweat patterns is an interesting thought. Might have to try that. I'll try riding with a looser cinch and see if that does anything. My last saddle slid all over. I got in the habit of really cinching up tight. I probably don't need to do that so much with this saddle.

I know Shorty is built a little downhill. My mindset ,due to past experiences, is--make it level. Maybe I don't need to do it as long as the ground seat will give me the freedom to somewhat choose my position?

Shorty's back doesn't look to have any unusual lumps, bumps, or bulges, at least to my inexperienced eye. Other than being wide, I don't think there's anything that unusual about it.

My current saddle is the best match so far. I feel like I have a good secure, upright position and Shorty is moving better and behaving like he's happier than he's been. The last of his white hairs disappeared this spring. But the saddle was made by a co. that specializes in endurance saddles. It's lightweight, under 25#. They did what they could to make the saddle stronger, but it's NOT a roping saddle. I would like to do a Wade for my next saddle. It'll be my largest saddle expenditure probably of my lifetime. I'm trying to figure out what's do-able and what's not.

kelly

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

1horse

Interesting about the mule. I expect that to be pretty unusual though. I would be surprised if your horse was the same, but never say never...

From what you say, your seat is good. It positions you well and keeps you balanced. I think all the "rules" are made to try to see a good seat, when you really need to feel it to know if it is good or not. The saddle you ride stays put, even when you pull with it. You horse is moving well and behaviour problems with saddling have disappeared as well. All this is sounding very good. Dry spots - not ideal, but we agree with Chuck that they do not always indicate serious problems - IF everything else is OK. ie. no swelling, soreness, behavioural issues, etc. From what we know by just reading here, for this saddle - if it ain't broke..

In wanting another saddle to rope from, you are in the same place as when you buy women's clothing - the numbers and terms mean NOTHING when comparing between makers. While you have some good basics on what to look for here, you know that you have to try it on to see if it fits. And with a horse, this means ride it.

Reiterating the different components of fit that you will be checking:

1.) The angle of the bars, and how they change from front to back (Note: the change in angle is called the twist in Western terminology. Twist in English terminology refers to the narrowest part of the saddle.) On your guy, you obviously need a very flat angle. Check this all along the bar, not just at the front.

2.) The width between the bars, sometimes called spread. Most production trees combine the spread and angle so as the angle gets flatter, the bars also get wider apart. This is the basic difference between semi-QH, QH and full QH. It doesn't help if you have a smaller horse with a flat angle to their back, which is what you have. This is why the draft saddle didn't work after he lost weight. It may have had a good angle, but there was too much spread between the bars.

3.) Gullet clearance

4.) Bar length - which might be a concern on your smaller guy

5.) Amount of rock

6.) Shape of the bottom of the bar - how much crown there is. On this guy, you will want a fairly flat bar (side to side). This may help with the dry spotting too. You don't want a really bulgy shape on the bottom.

And you can't tell all these by a name or "size", or even by looking and feeling. Basically, you gotta ride it to know how it really works on your horse.

[ccpowell]

One thing to consider- would a custom saddle maker consider having a tree made custom to this horse, then build the saddle custom as well, and engrave it and/or tooling specific to the type of horse and rider? Would this help with the issue of maker reputation beyond the useful life of the horse? It would certainly be the best way to have a roping saddle that fit the horse and rider. As far as the downhill build, maybe some of the experienced custom saddle makers could jump in here and give insight? Maybe more buildup in front in the ground seat and perhaps a little more angle in the cantle?

Chuck

1horse

Interesting about the mule. I expect that to be pretty unusual though. I would be surprised if your horse was the same, but never say never...

From what you say, your seat is good. It positions you well and keeps you balanced. I think all the "rules" are made to try to see a good seat, when you really need to feel it to know if it is good or not. The saddle you ride stays put, even when you pull with it. You horse is moving well and behaviour problems with saddling have disappeared as well. All this is sounding very good. Dry spots - not ideal, but we agree with Chuck that they do not always indicate serious problems - IF everything else is OK. ie. no swelling, soreness, behavioural issues, etc. From what we know by just reading here, for this saddle - if it ain't broke..

In wanting another saddle to rope from, you are in the same place as when you buy women's clothing - the numbers and terms mean NOTHING when comparing between makers. While you have some good basics on what to look for here, you know that you have to try it on to see if it fits. And with a horse, this means ride it.

Reiterating the different components of fit that you will be checking:

1.) The angle of the bars, and how they change from front to back (Note: the change in angle is called the twist in Western terminology. Twist in English terminology refers to the narrowest part of the saddle.) On your guy, you obviously need a very flat angle. Check this all along the bar, not just at the front.

2.) The width between the bars, sometimes called spread. Most production trees combine the spread and angle so as the angle gets flatter, the bars also get wider apart. This is the basic difference between semi-QH, QH and full QH. It doesn't help if you have a smaller horse with a flat angle to their back, which is what you have. This is why the draft saddle didn't work after he lost weight. It may have had a good angle, but there was too much spread between the bars.

3.) Gullet clearance

4.) Bar length - which might be a concern on your smaller guy

5.) Amount of rock

6.) Shape of the bottom of the bar - how much crown there is. On this guy, you will want a fairly flat bar (side to side). This may help with the dry spotting too. You don't want a really bulgy shape on the bottom.

And you can't tell all these by a name or "size", or even by looking and feeling. Basically, you gotta ride it to know how it really works on your horse.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

1 Horse,

Denise, and the others are making a lot of valid points, and their experience in the area is from very different points of view. I will add this, I once made a saddle for a woman, that fit her horse correctly. It was a 1/2 arab 1/2 standardbred. The result was a very mutton withered, downhill standing, horse with a short back. It actually looked like a halflinger, kinda. Well, at first I told her that after she tried a dozen different saddles on her, none fit, and her saddle shop was getting tired of seeing her come into the shop to return saddles, my first suggestion was to get a different horse that she could use and enjoy regularly without the expense of a new custom built saddle. That did not work and she had me make her a saddle to fit her horse anyway! ( I will never do that again!) I told her at the time that the saddle that I made for here horse would likely not fit most other horses and that once she did sell that horse she should sell that saddle with the horse also. Sure enough, a couple of years later, she called me to see if I wanted buy the saddle back. Of course I didn't. She eventually donated it to a horse shelter for the tax write off. Fortunately, some time later some folks that had a similar fit problem, happened by shear luck, to end up with the saddle and it now has a happy home. Bottom line here is, the first advice was the best. Get a horse to use that has more standard conformation and save yourself a lot of trouble, aggravation, and expense. It would probably be cheaper in the long run to retire your "half" to the pasture and some loving care and have a second horse to use.

I know about wanting your horses to be happy, I have 2 out there that I can't use any more because of medical problems they have developed over the years, but; they have earned a happy home and that is where they will stay. By the way, the cutting horse with bad hips may not be able to cut anymore, but; she is the best babysitter for my grand children you could ever imagine! There is life after riding.

Bondo Bob

[ccpowell]

I have been trying to research the dry spot issue, and it is fairly frustrating. Most of the information out there is anecdotal at best. Here is a link to the AAEP website and a fairly comprehensive article on saddle fitting. At the beginning of the article, it lists in bullet point fashion signs of poor saddle fit, and dry spots is not on the list. Later in the article it mentions dry spots and states that they may be caused by lack of pressure first, then too much pressure as well. It could be that the spots frequently seen on shoulders is because of movement in this area and consequently more cooling and less sweating in this area. If there are dry spots with no pain, swelling, discomfort, or unwillingness to perform under saddle, then they may be insignificant. If anyone has more info or experience on this subject, please add on or PM me, I really want to gather data on the dry spot subject. Here is the link

http://www.aaep.org/health_articles_view.php?id=331

Bob, you make a great point from the perspective of the saddle maker- what an owner tells you with regard to never selling the saddle could in fact come back to bite you in the posterior region! I know a vet who had a client swear that they wouldn't sell a cow, and he treated her cancer eye with off label chemo drugs. Later he found out that the cow was sold, and ended up finding her at a sale barn on the other side of the state. He managed to get there and get in the bidding for the cow, but buyers quickly caught on to the fact that a vet was trying to buy a cancer-eye cow, and bid him up. Consequently, it cost him a lot of time and money because of a "I won't sell" verbal guarantee!

Maybe checking the Dennis Lane cards on this horse, then comparing to other haflingers would lead to an easier decision by horse owner and saddle maker as to whether or not to make a saddle specifically for this horse- it may lead to the development of the "Halflinger Tree"- something else to consider,

Chuck

1 Horse,

Denise, and the others are making a lot of valid points, and their experience in the area is from very different points of view. I will add this, I once made a saddle for a woman, that fit her horse correctly. It was a 1/2 arab 1/2 standardbred. The result was a very mutton withered, downhill standing, horse with a short back. It actually looked like a halflinger, kinda. Well, at first I told her that after she tried a dozen different saddles on her, none fit, and her saddle shop was getting tired of seeing her come into the shop to return saddles, my first suggestion was to get a different horse that she could use and enjoy regularly without the expense of a new custom built saddle. That did not work and she had me make her a saddle to fit her horse anyway! ( I will never do that again!) I told her at the time that the saddle that I made for here horse would likely not fit most other horses and that once she did sell that horse she should sell that saddle with the horse also. Sure enough, a couple of years later, she called me to see if I wanted buy the saddle back. Of course I didn't. She eventually donated it to a horse shelter for the tax write off. Fortunately, some time later some folks that had a similar fit problem, happened by shear luck, to end up with the saddle and it now has a happy home. Bottom line here is, the first advice was the best. Get a horse to use that has more standard conformation and save yourself a lot of trouble, aggravation, and expense. It would probably be cheaper in the long run to retire your "half" to the pasture and some loving care and have a second horse to use.

I know about wanting your horses to be happy, I have 2 out there that I can't use any more because of medical problems they have developed over the years, but; they have earned a happy home and that is where they will stay. By the way, the cutting horse with bad hips may not be able to cut anymore, but; she is the best babysitter for my grand children you could ever imagine! There is life after riding.

Bondo Bob

[1horsetown]

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that all horses have issues. When you get a different horse, you don't get no issues, you get different issues. The idea is to pick a horse with issues you can deal with. Some of the things you might consider issues, may not be to others.

For what it's worth. Some pics of Shorty. I marked the back of the scapulas. They line up perfectly with the base of his mane. I also marked what I thought was the lowest point of his back. It's 11 inches from the base of the mane to the low point mark. Just to give you some scale. I cut down the pixels. I'm on dial-up and big files are a nightmare.

I'm on my own with the horse, so he's not quite as square as I'd like, but he's close. There's no level concrete on our place. Anything less than 100 years old is built by the 'close enough, sorta-kinda' rule. His fronts are a bit lower than his rears, between an inch and 2. It's just a general idea of what he looks like.

I rode Shorty today to see if I could get some pics of his sweat patterns, but it was, evidently, too nice a day to get a good sweat going. The temps will be in the 90's next week.

I weight taped him today. He's right at 1050. He could lose a bit more, but he's not ridiculously heavy.

I do agree that many saddle pads are made out of materials that breathe well enough that they could leave odd marks. They've come to the conclusion that backs should be ventilated. I'd also considered that. The dry areas could be the places with the greatest air movement. I'd still like to do the bareback pad experiment. I don't have a bareback pad. Do you think my treeless saddle would work? I'd also thought about putting plastic under it to limit air movement. Wouldn't do that for a long ride, but for a little lunging???

kelly

[bruce johnson]

Kelly,

Cute little horse, and he looks like he could drag a dead steer out of a well. It sounds like if you got a saddle to fit this horse, there are more like him around so the deaal about not being able to find another to fit might not be much of an issue. If you got one, it fits and whatever happens on down the road, those people might like that saddle. They'd probably be dealing with the same issues of finding something to work on their bulldoggy horses.

As far as the past issues with saddle fit, it does sound frustrating. I would be suspicious of a few things Denise has already touched on. One is the profile of the bottom of the bars. He looks fairly full in the pictures. Some treemakers put a more crown in their bars than others. If you are familiar with Dennis Lane's card system - they are making "S" bars. If you have a horse with a flatter back the center of that crown is putting more pressure on. A flatter bar ("D" profile) will spread it out more. If all the saddles you try are crowned bars, the angles and spreads might be within tolerances, pretty much ride alright and stay put, but the saddle still will have a ridge of pressure down the center of the bar.

I am going to step out and suggest something here. You are going to probably have issues trying to find a saddle without squeezing a lot of lemons trying to find one to make lemonade. You can try several brands of saddles and still might be trying all the same or very similar trees in every one of them. You might need some spread, rock and bar length stuff that just isn't out there very commonly.

You are in SW Iowa. I would load up Halfie and take him on a bus ride to see Jon Watsabaugh if he is willing. Pretty sure he lives near Des Moines. Jon is a member here and makes saddle trees. He could probably set a few bar patterns on him see what is going to work and what isn't. Even if a custom saddle is not in the cards, at least you'd have an idea of what might work, and eliminate a boatload of what won't.

[1horsetown]

Saddles are frustrating. Or I should say saddle FIT is frustrating. My old horse had a 5-1/2" gullet. He was a thrill to fit also.

That's interesting about the different bars.

I'm happy to have the input from this forum. The saddle makers I've talked to previous buy mass produced trees and know nothing about them except that you put leather on them. I'm learning alot here.

My main obstacle is my location. I absolutely cannot get my horse to Montana, Idaho, Nevada, etc where most of the tree builders seem to reside. I could reasonably haul as far as Des Moines or some other place within 3 or 4 hours. Being a stay at home mom with pre-schoolers has it's limitations.

Yes, Shorty presents some challenges. But he's a good horse and I enjoy him.

I'd be okay with a saddle maker who decided against putting his mark on my saddle. I understand the need to protect their reputation. I'd be okay with a maker stamping the seat with "This saddle was made for Shorty. It will NOT fit your horse." Up front honesty.

I don't think Shorty's build is all that different from many other Haffies.

I will order a set of Dennis' cards. If nothing else, I'm curious to see how my horse sizes up. I've spent more than that out of curiousity.

thanks Kelly

[jwwright]

Kelly, as Bruce mentioned, Jon Watsabaugh is at Des Moines. He's a great tree maker and saddle maker............I think it would be worth your trip. Send me a PM if you would like his contact information. I'm not too sure how often Jon checks in here. JW