Point of reference on a tree?

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Troy,

We agree completely that the tree maker has to be consistent in how he builds the bars. That, to us, is essential in a good tree maker. They also need to know when and how to change something and for what reason.

Thank you for the good explanation on how you set up this method of checking evenness. In this case, we have the rigging and pictures of it tacked back onto the tree to prove how far it was out. Not only was the right side further back than the left, but it was also lower down. That is why the string worked out almost even. The length of string it lost in being farther back it gained in being lower down. As well, in comparing the two sides of the rigging, they were anything but identical. In fact, the second saddle maker who tried to square it up had to build a new rigging because this one couldn't be forced to be square, which is how we ended up with it. It was going in the garbage bin anyway. With a straight rigging, the saddle worked great. Prior to that it had caused major problems whenever it was ridden despite having had two different trees in it.

We know this is a common and good method to check evenness from side to side, but we just wanted to point out that the string can still be the same length if whatever you are checking is out evenly in two directions. Something that obvious should scream so loud you don't need the string, but it seems that there is the occasional person that wears ear muffs, or blinders…

[TroyWest]

Troy I use a nail top dead center on the cantle first, then I stand the tree up on the front bar tips on my stamping block and measure both front and back rig distance from block.. If everything is where its supposed to be the measurements will be exactly the same both ways. As for rigging depth I have a 1 foot wooden ruler to which I have fasten a piece of skirting flush with on end making a large stop . then I took two pieces of skirting 1" wide by 3 " long and sandwhiched the ruler between these two placing a rivet close to the edge of the ruler on both sides. I can set the blocked end of the ruler against the bottom edge of the bar then slide the riveted piece up to the bottom of the riggin ring or plate then check the other side. This is nice cause if the phone rings or I get distracted I don't need to re-measure or try and remember the measurement as I still have my ruler set. Greg

Greg,

One of the things I didn't say was stand the tree on a rock, but your depth measurement jig I've never heard of. Pretty clever.Thanks for sharing that.

Troy

[steve mason]

Great topic here.

I, like Greg use the ball or rounded part of the bar pad to refer from, since I also have been to the Matt Eberle school of rigging position, that method may have come from Cliff Ketchum since Matt was influenced from him. The ball usually corresponds with the lowest drop of the bar pad or close to it, it is just another reference point although I do have to remember that the drop it is not always Hoyle. I also use the jig for measuring the depth of the rigging plates. I use two jigs, one stays set for the front rig and the other for the back. Instead of a string I use a 1/2" strip of latigo to measure with. I will put a nail centered on the top of the cantle, and in the cantle gullet, I find center there with a center finding rule. Along with these two points of measurement I use Harwood method of measuring from the back bar tips to the front rig plates, the tape will run both over the top of the bar and under the bar pads. Using this measurement I have to be careful since the lacing of the tree can some times interfere with the measurement.

I feel like I want as many measurements as possible to make sure that my rig is square from side to side both forward and back and up and down.

Here is a photo of the jigs I use to measure depth with. the ruler I made and the all wood jig Matt made for me.

ps;

Ryan Cope, I heard from the rumor mill that you won the show at Kamloops, congratulations. Do you have a photo of the saddle?

Edited March 17, 2008 by steve mason

[RyanCope]

I did go up to Kamloops. I had a great time, and enjoyed meeting every one. Everyone was very friendly. Having Mr. Stormes disect my work was quite a humbling experience. However, I greatly appreciate the opportunity to receive some feedback from him with regards to improvements that could be made. And by the way, Darcy had to pull out at the last minute. Had he not I suspect the outcome would have been different. I'll post the saddle on the other page.

Ryan Cope

[TroyWest]

Denise, the point you made on the string is an excellent point.

Ryan, congratulations on your win at Kamloops. I know after listening to Chuck it'll just make you better. Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

[waddy]

I hope this fits in this topic. What do you use for a reference when you are placing the bare tree "level"? Let's assume we have the perfect horse, with a perfectly level back, and of course we want the skirts to be parallel with the ground. Several have mentioned blocking up the back of the tree, which is obvious. But how much? What is used as a refenence to determine when the bare tree is actually level? We have to ignore, at this point, the horses which have "uphill" or "downhill" backs, but other than the old "that looks about right", do any of you have a good method to level the tree for a starting point?

[GordonA]

Denise,

The nail in the cantle method. Set a yard stick on the back of the bars right behind the cantle. Take a small square and set it centered on the yardstick between the bars. If its 3" set it at 1 1/2" and draw a line straight up the back of the cantle. Turn the square around check it on the opposite side. It should be in the same spot. This should be a very accurate center point between the bars, Which is the goal, a center point between the bars.

This is the method that I use, and I believe it to be very accurate. I have a center finding ruler that I lay on the bars behind the cantle that the square is set on. However, without a second reference point to triangulate from I wouldn't be able to rely on this point on the cantle to line up riggings side to side. This second point can be more difficult to locate. I like to use the center of the horn at the base, or the center of the seat at the hand hole. I find this by measuring up from the widest point of the front pad of the bars on both sides with a large pair of dividers. I've found that by triangulating from these 2 points I can accurately locate the off side rigging using the triangle from the near side. This is how students of orienteering transfer compass readings from a map to the real landscape. The distances we are talking about on a saddle are so short that any margin of error is extremely small, making this a good method if laid out with care. After its all said and done I rely on my eye. If it looks off balance I keep working it until it measures and looks right.

Just a thought about rigging placement; Before we started roping from saddles the overwhelming majority of rigging placements was center fired or 5/8s. I don't think that the pull from the horn can be discounted in this conversation. It would be my hope that any tree maker is taking into account the pull of the rope on the horn when placing the horn in relation to the front pads of the bars. On the trees that I am using the center of the horns base has always lined up with the widest part of the front pad if not slightly behind. This helps the horse absorb the shock from a rope. With the tree maker that I am using this allows me to use the center of the horns base as an obvious location for a full rigging, provided that the tree has been properly leveled. A plumb bob is helpfull here.

Gordon

[greg gomersall]

This is the method that I use, and I believe it to be very accurate. I have a center finding ruler that I lay on the bars behind the cantle that the square is set on. However, without a second reference point to triangulate from I wouldn't be able to rely on this point on the cantle to line up riggings side to side. This second point can be more difficult to locate. I like to use the center of the horn at the base, or the center of the seat at the hand hole. I find this by measuring up from the widest point of the front pad of the bars on both sides with a large pair of dividers. I've found that by triangulating from these 2 points I can accurately locate the off side rigging using the triangle from the near side. This is how students of orienteering transfer compass readings from a map to the real landscape. The distances we are talking about on a saddle are so short that any margin of error is extremely small, making this a good method if laid out with care. After its all said and done I rely on my eye. If it looks off balance I keep working it until it measures and looks right.

Just a thought about rigging placement; Before we started roping from saddles the overwhelming majority of rigging placements was center fired or 5/8s. I don't think that the pull from the horn can be discounted in this conversation. It would be my hope that any tree maker is taking into account the pull of the rope on the horn when placing the horn in relation to the front pads of the bars. On the trees that I am using the center of the horns base has always lined up with the widest part of the front pad if not slightly behind. This helps the horse absorb the shock from a rope. With the tree maker that I am using this allows me to use the center of the horns base as an obvious location for a full rigging, provided that the tree has been properly leveled. A plumb bob is helpfull here.

Gordon

Gordon one thing to keep in mind with the center of the horn theory is that if you have two identical trees from the same maker with the only difference being one has a wood post horn and the other a metal horn your full double position you mentioned for reference will be in two different spots. This is why I believe you get a more accurate point of reference working off of the bottom side. This is just my opinion and heck I have been wrong before. Greg

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Just starting work on some flat plate riggings and it got me to thinking about this whole point of reference thing, rigging positions, etc...

I am making a roughout saddle that will have flatplate riggings which I have already assembled and have ready to install. I know from reading posts over the last year that people have a variety of ways in which they find their rigging position and then there are almost as many methods of installing the riggings evenly that range from advanced jigs to eyeing it up. The two flat plates I have are absolutely identical in every aspect other than being a left and a right. My question is, has anyone ever punched or drilled their screw holes in both flat plates, lining up the holes with one plate on top of the other so that the holes are in exactly the same place on both riggings and then marking the screw holes positions on the bar and pre drilling them by using a paper template of the bar shape as shown below? This seems like an extremely simple way of ensuring that the riggings are installed evenly and are pulling the tree down in exactly the same way.

I have seen factory made trees with one bar that is longer, shorter, thicker, and taller than the other but the handmade trees I use are quite precise so I don't see a problem with the squareness of the rigging being thrown out of true from asymetry. Anyone have any thoughts on why this couldn't work?

Darc

Edited June 17, 2008 by D.A. Kabatoff

[kseidel]

That would work fine for balance and symetry. How would you determine the desired position prior to punching the holes for placement? Use the pattern? Fit one side first, remove it and make the pattern off of the first? In any case the idea will work.

Keith