SteveBrambley Report post Posted June 10, 2009 Hi all, A short while ago, I suggested that the Highlead GA2688 and the Typical TW3-441 are virtually identical machines. Art, quite rightly, pointed out that they are not identical. However, I have now done a bit more research, as I still considered these machines, if not identical, to be very closely related. It appears that there are two popular groups of heavy, leather stitchers currently on the market; for the sake of argument, let's call them group 'P' and group 'R'. The Highlead GA2688 falls into group 'P'; another machine in this group is the Artisan Toro 4000P. There may well be other machines available, in this group, but I have, so far, not found any. The Typical TW3-441, on the other hand, falls into group 'R', examples of this, more common, group are: the Artisan Toro 4000R, the Cobra Class 4, the Consew 756R and the Sieck TK 441. The only obvious difference between these two groups appears to be that group 'P' has its bobbin winder on top, where as group 'R' has it on the front. Also, the main casting of group 'P' does look a little heavier than group 'R'. Other than that, these two machine groups are mechanically similar (I won't say 'identical', as this has already got me into trouble!) in every way that matters. I base this observation on Artisan's own instruction and spare parts manual. This excellent document covers both the Toro 4000P and the Toro 4000R (As well as the 3000). In this, there is only one parts list for both the 4000P and the 4000R models; the only difference in the instructions, between the two, is how to wind the bobbin thread. Even the specifications are the same! Now, forgive me if I am being naive, or have missed something, but to me, two machines, that use identical parts (And they are identical this time!) are, essentially, the SAME machine! Where does this leave the Typical TW3-441 in relation to the Highlead? Well, I have compared the spare parts manual for the Typical with that of the Artisan and the parts are again identical! So, putting all this together, if the Highlead GA2688 and the Artisan Toro 4000P are basically the same machine, and the Toro 4000P and the Toro 4000R are, internally, identical, then logically the Highlead and the Typical must also be, internally, identical. If all the above machines, in both groups, are so closely related, it stands to reason that they must have a common designer, if not a common manufacturer. Knowing the Chinese, it seems very likely that the use of multiple factories may be involved here. This is not necessarily a bad thing; after all, the original Singer Company did this all the time! Another likelihood is that the components are manufactured in many different locations and then brought together for final assembly. Art tells me that a company called 'Zhigiang' manufactures the Typical; this may well be the case (multiple factories and all that!). However, the 'Typical Sewing Machine Wanping Machinary Co Ltd' claim that they are the manufacturers as well. Check out their website at: http://www.typicalwpchina.com/en/profile.htm At the end of the day, if anyone is looking for a heavy, leather stitcher, it seems to me that it doesn't matter one iota which of the above machines are chosen, as they are all, essentially, the same, only the badge and the paint job are different. It all boils down to which seller offers the best deal and/or after sales service. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKRay Report post Posted June 10, 2009 Steve, As you are undoubtedly the UK's sewing machine guru, I wouldn't begin to argue with you about parts, part numbers or even castings, however my limited personal experience suggests that there may be another, albeit slight, difference between certain Ps and Rs. I have test driven a number of these in the past few months and can say, with absolutely no authority at all, that IMHO Highlead machines seem to have a rather better 'build quality' than the others I have tried. Now, I haven't been near an Artisan machine and I'm not about to discuss which machines I have tried for fear of starting a war, let it suffice to say that, IMHO the new Highleads seem to be more finely 'balanced' than any of the others I have tried. They simply 'drive' better. Given that the parts are ostensibly the same, this suggests that the way the new Highlead machines are assembled/set up may be carried out with more attention to detail. Given that Highlead machines cost more than most, if not all, the other machines, I have begun to think there may actually be a reason! Like I say, I'm simply articulating what I think... and we all know what sort of nonsense I can come out with on occasions! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esantoro Report post Posted June 10, 2009 I wonder if a higher grade steel and a Japanese-made shuttle hook is used in the Highlead/P. This alone probably constitutes a $600 increase in price. Word on the street is there is no noticeable difference if you are using either machine for a total stitching time of 2 hours a day, but that the Highlead/ P if the machine is stitching 7 hours a day. I also wonder if the noticeable movement of vital parts is not better on the Highlead/P, something a kin to the difference you feel between shutting the door on a Jaguar and shutting the door on a Toyota Corolla: They're both good,but one just really feels right. ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKRay Report post Posted June 10, 2009 the difference you feel between shutting the door on a Jaguar and shutting the door on a Toyota Corolla: They're both good,but one just really feels right. That sums up my opinion very well, Ed. Based entirely on the 'feel' of the thing and not on any knowledge whatsoever! Ray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esantoro Report post Posted June 10, 2009 That sums up my opinion very well, Ed. Based entirely on the 'feel' of the thing and not on any knowledge whatsoever!Ray I was going to reference a Kia sport, but I felt the 441s are better than that. ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteveBrambley Report post Posted June 10, 2009 Hi Ray, Thank you for your remarks concerning my 'guru' status, but, I have never considered myself any kind of 'expert', it's just that I've been around sewing machines for over forty years, and used most of the well known marks, from time to time, so I think that I may have 'picked up' a bit of knowledge. I must admit that I have not, personally, ever tried a Highlead, my comments are entirely based on info, pictures etc. that I have gathered from various sources on the net. Therefore, if you have 'Road Tested' different machines, and have found the 'build quality' better with the Highlead than others, I must bow down to your greater practical experience with diverse machines. I do know exactly what you mean by 'feel', I use several different types of sewing machine every day, and each one has its own 'feel'. Maybe Highlead do have their machines assembled with greater care, I don't know, so I wouldn't like to say. Also, you can have two identical machines, from the same factory and they can 'feel' and behave completely differently, depending on how they have been treated by former users. Also, it is not unknown to get 'rogue' machines when buying new. The problem is, a well known brand name is no guarantee of real quality. For example, we sell a very cheap, guncover (Which we have made for us in china, as it happens), to a very well known London gunmaker. They are selling this for over twice the price as other shops, we asked them how they manage to do this, their reply was, "Our customers wouldn't expect to pay any less!". It appears some companies think that if they have a well established 'name' they can charge a premium. I notice that Artisan charge about $1000 more for their 'P' model than they do for their 'R' model; maybe they have them put together more carefully as well! Ed, I have considered the 'higher grade steels' posibility myself, however, all the companies that deal in the machines that I have previously mentioned, are all highly reputable, and wouldn't risk their good names by selling a product with inferior components, or, at least, I wouldn't have thought so! Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Report post Posted June 10, 2009 Having worked with both Highlead and ZhiQiang machines, I can say that they both have 441 parts inside. The design of the parts is 441, but there is a little difference in the winder area. The most remarkable difference is when you pick one of the Highleads up, THEN there seems to be a BIG difference. Highlead was also using some expensive Japanese hooks when I got mine, I don't know if they are doing that today, I think that Japanese factory has moved to China. The Artisan 4000P IS made by the same factory in Shanghai as the Highlead, Huigong No.3. The Artisan 4000R is made by ZhiQiang. Threads of ownership run in and out of these factories, so REALLY knowing who owns what in China, or finding out for that matter, is practically impossible. Most of the 441 and Adler clones are pretty good machines and give good service, Juki and Adler designed very good machines and a copy of a very good machine will generally be a good machine if quality is good. Fifteen years ago, Chinese castings were crap and you could get better quality out of Taiwan, not so today, casting quality is very good in China. I don't know that I would recommend the Highlead over the Typical for a new purchaser, the Highlead costs the distributor 900 more than the other 441s, and I don't know that the average leatherworker would ever get that back, they are beautiful machines though. Art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
neelsaddlery Report post Posted June 11, 2009 Hello All: The Typical clone of the 441 is indeed produced by Typical in their own factory. Typical also has their own foundry, and while I cannot be assured that the casting is made there, I would say there is a better than average chance that Typical produces it. Typical as a company is quite large. On the whole, they employ about 3000-5000 people, depending on workload. They have two divisions. Typical Wanping Machinery is the division responsible for the heavy duty machines. Located in Xian, China, they are a government owned enterprise. In China, you find quite varied business arrangements. Some sewing machine companies have their own parts manufacturing plants, as well as casting and machining plants as well. Some only do final assembly and buy their parts and castings elsewhere. It depends on the size of the company and the resources they have available. Because Typical is such a large enterprise, they do produce a lot of their own parts, as well as castings and final machining of those castings. I have visited their plants in Xian and they are quite impressive. Very large, very well organized, very clean. Highlead also produces their own clone of the 441 machine. The only exception is that the bobbin winder for the Highlead is located on the top of the machine, as opposed to the front of the machine on the other 441 clones. Highlead is a very known maker of sewing machines in China, and for years was the "king of the hill" when it came to producing top quality machines. However, those machines also carried with them a very high price tag. Yes, the quality was there, but in my mind the price was never worth the quality. Most folks will retail a Highlead for about $4000.00, sometimes more, and for $1000.00 more, you could buy a Juki 441 -- made in Japan. Highlead has lost a big share of their market to the smaller privately owned enterprises that can produce excellent quality at a price close to half that of Highlead. At first, the quality of the smaller makers was not good at all, but over the years they have steadily improved. So much to the point that Artisan (and even myself for that matter) have went with these smaller makers as machine suppliers because we can buy machines for much less and also sell them for much less. A lower price means more sales and more sales means a higher profit at the end of the year. Some other folks have also commented on Japanese hooks. This is just my opinion, but I feel that for the added costs, a Japanese made hook just is not worth it. Juki and Adler sell replacement hooks for their 441 and 205 class machines for somewhere around $400.00. You can buy a good Chinese made hook for $160.00. If the Chinese hook lasted half as long, then you'd still be getting a better deal!!!! And frankly I see no difference in stitch quality between a quality Chinese made hook and its Japanese counterpart. Longevity, maybe. Stitch quality, no. Kindest Regards, Ryan O. Neel Neel's Saddlery and Harness Cowboy Sewing Machines Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
china Report post Posted June 11, 2009 I am no expert in these matters, I was told by my sewing machine tech that Highlead is made by Mitsubishi, as another line to their self branded items no doubt all moved to China Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Report post Posted June 11, 2009 Huigong No.3 makes some of the Mitsubishi models and there are some dealings back and forth between those companies, however Mitsubishi does not own the producer of Highlead machines. Some of the Japanese producers are moving some of their production to China, it is just less expensive to produce in China than in Japan. Art I am no expert in these matters, I was told by my sewing machine tech that Highlead is made by Mitsubishi, as another line to their self branded items no doubt all moved to China Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteveBrambley Report post Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) Art, Ryan, Many, many, thanks to you both, that really does help explain a lot! China, Funny thing is, I was told that Typical made machines for Mitsubishi. No idea if it's true though! Steve Edited June 11, 2009 by SteveBrambley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
