Advice needed on Juki 441

[stoke]

Hello everyone,

I'm new here, so I'll give a short background. I started messing with handmade knives in about 1984 and have continued to do so for the last 25 years. I am not a full time maker, but do sell a few on occassion. Up to this point I've always stitched my sheaths by hand, but now I'm thinking of buying a machine. Most of what I sew is no more than 1/2" thick. I do own several commercial machines, Consew,Tacsew,singer, Rex, and one 1966 model Union Special. None, however are heavy enough for sheaths. I have seached the forum several times and read what I can, but I'd like some advice.

I have the chance to buy an older Juki-441( I'm guessing maybe 10-15 years old), but will not have the chance to view it in person. Also, I'll end up paying freight for about 1,000 miles. The owner seems very honest, said the machine is in great shape...but who knows. I can get the machine for $1,500.00.

Now the delimma. Do I buy a new Toro 3000/4000 with the great warranty and customer support or do I save the difference and get the Juki. I have heard that they(Juki) are great machines. I believe the machine was used to sew military cargo straps.

By the way, I'm in central NC.

Thanks,

Jamie

[TimberWolf]

Hmmm....Sounds a little too cheap to me. Those 441's hold their value. I'd be wary.

Tim

[TwinOaks]

The sewing machine gurus will be along in a few...

Until then, here's some things to consider:

With shipping included, are you going to be pretty close to a new machine's price? If so, new is better.

There's also the consideration of what the Juki was used for- if it's someone's old leather stitcher, then it probably has comparatively few "miles" on it.

If it came out of a factory, well, the mileage is likely to be much higher.

Another issue to think about is "what will it take to make a leather stitcher?" Generally, heavy leather stitchers are set up specifically for leather- a speed reducing pully to slow it down and add torque, and many now come with a DC motor instead of an AC one. There's nothing wrong with AC per se, but they generally get their torque from their speed, where a DC can produce the torque at slower speeds.

Just my opinion, but I don't think you want a machine set up for running several thousand stitches per minute....at least not right now.

Next is service- from what I've read, $1500 isn't a bad price ($3k-$5k machine), but will you have to rebuild it? What about when something breaks? There's a lot to be said for a warranty. AFAIK, the major suppliers here are more than willing to help out with questions, purchase or not. How about accessories? Does it have a stand and motor, or is it head only?

There's lots of things to check on, I know, but if your mechanically inclined, have a bench and motor, etc, then a head only purchase might be a great deal. Personally, I'd be more inclined to add another $1k, and get a brand spanking new machine that has everything included, and comes set up ready to sew, but that's just me.

Oh, one little thing....

Welcome to Leatherworker.net!

Edited June 18, 2009 by TwinOaks

[esantoro]

I'd go for a new clone and customer service.

ed

[Art]

Hi Jamie,

Mike gave you good advice. You didn't give enough info on what you were buying, just the head (then it probably came out of a surplus auction) or a complete machine. The $1500 is a little low for a complete machine, but ok for a head in good shape. Remember that it is set up to do webbing. You will need a motor, speed reducer, maybe a stand, a new needle plate, maybe a smooth dog, maybe a new hook, and probably a needle bar, and some feet, miscellaneous belts and nuts and bolts. None of those things by themselves are cheap, then you have to install them.

Now a new 441 clone will run about $2695 and about $150 or so shipping and it will come setup to sew whatever you want. If you buy it in July, I understand there will be a sale with a whole bunch of extras thrown in.

Service is as important as the machine, read previous posts in this forum to figure out who is the customer service guru and will treat you right.

If you get an older Juki, don't try to time it using the Japanese instructions, and never even attempt timing one of the Chinese machines that way. Those folks don't speak Engrish very well and they are even worse at writing it. There is a seven step process that you can use to completely time the machine (and even that can be shortcutted to three or so most of the time). If you need to time it call Steve Tayrien and he'll tell you how. Ten or Twenty minutes on the phone with Steve can straighten most anything out.

Art

[Bob]

Jamie, this is easy. Assuming the 441 juki comes with a table and motor.... That would be my choice. The Japanese made awesome machines at that time. Just better parts and components. If it's working like he says it is, you shouldn't have to do anything with it. You can smooth off the feed dogs yourself with a file to work on your knife cases. Just so it don't leave tracks.

I own one of the older Japanese 441 Juki's made 10-15 years ago and won't trade it nothing they're making today. Regardless of customer service. If your the least bit mechanical you can fix it yourself and get the manual from proleptic.net. Save yourself half the price, and get a better machine too.

My humble oppion

[neelsaddlery]

Hmmm....Sounds a little too cheap to me. Those 441's hold their value. I'd be wary.

Tim

Just got back from the Weaver Auction, and they sold a complete Juki 441 with stand, motor, table, and machine head for $1200.00. It was used, but appeared to be all there and in good working condition.

The Weaver auction this year was definitely a buyer's market.

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

Cowboy Sewing Machines

[stoke]

Thanks for all the responses. The machine comes complete with the table and motor, ready to sew. The machine is in perfect shape according to him, he did say the table had a few bolts that were a little rough. The owner said if I wanted he could sew some leather and send email photos of it. He also told me he tried it on leather when he first got it and it did fine. I think he owned a shop near a military base and used it on bags and straps. He had four of the machines and has kept this one for himself. I don't think he has used it for quite a while.

As far as being able to work on it, I might be OK. I pretty much have a machine shop in the building where I work on my knives. Making or moding parts shouldn't be a problem...to a certain extent. Then again, it would be nice to be able pick up the phone and call someone for support. I'm going to check on the freight charges and speak to the owner tomorrow, I think he might even split the freight charges with me. He seems to need money for another purchase. Again, thanks for all the answers. I can see both sides of this. I'll let everyone know how this turns out. If the owner sends some good photos, I'll try to post them.

Jamie

[neelsaddlery]

If you need parts for this 441, please let me know, as we stock TONS of parts for our clone versions of this machine. With our version of the 441, we enjoy 100 percent parts interchangeability between our machine and the original Juki 441. All of our parts will fit it no problem.

We also stock all of the parts that you will need to get it set up to sew leather, such as left and right toe feet, double toe harness feet, slotted needle plates, holster plates, and stirrup plates.

If you need help with adjutsments and so forth, give me a call and I will help you out in any way I can.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Cowboy Sewing Machines

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

toll free: 1-866-507-8926

[stoke]

Well,

I still don't know what I'm going to do. I spoke with the owner today and asked about the motor set up. He told me that he thought it was set up for a single speed. He was pretty sure about it, but is going to check tonight. Has anyone ever heard of this for one of these machines?

Thanks,

Jamie