Advice needed on Juki 441

[stoke]

Hello everyone,

I'm new here, so I'll give a short background. I started messing with handmade knives in about 1984 and have continued to do so for the last 25 years. I am not a full time maker, but do sell a few on occassion. Up to this point I've always stitched my sheaths by hand, but now I'm thinking of buying a machine. Most of what I sew is no more than 1/2" thick. I do own several commercial machines, Consew,Tacsew,singer, Rex, and one 1966 model Union Special. None, however are heavy enough for sheaths. I have seached the forum several times and read what I can, but I'd like some advice.

I have the chance to buy an older Juki-441( I'm guessing maybe 10-15 years old), but will not have the chance to view it in person. Also, I'll end up paying freight for about 1,000 miles. The owner seems very honest, said the machine is in great shape...but who knows. I can get the machine for $1,500.00.

Now the delimma. Do I buy a new Toro 3000/4000 with the great warranty and customer support or do I save the difference and get the Juki. I have heard that they(Juki) are great machines. I believe the machine was used to sew military cargo straps.

By the way, I'm in central NC.

Thanks,

Jamie

[TimberWolf]

Hmmm....Sounds a little too cheap to me. Those 441's hold their value. I'd be wary.

Tim

[TwinOaks]

The sewing machine gurus will be along in a few...

Until then, here's some things to consider:

With shipping included, are you going to be pretty close to a new machine's price? If so, new is better.

There's also the consideration of what the Juki was used for- if it's someone's old leather stitcher, then it probably has comparatively few "miles" on it.

If it came out of a factory, well, the mileage is likely to be much higher.

Another issue to think about is "what will it take to make a leather stitcher?" Generally, heavy leather stitchers are set up specifically for leather- a speed reducing pully to slow it down and add torque, and many now come with a DC motor instead of an AC one. There's nothing wrong with AC per se, but they generally get their torque from their speed, where a DC can produce the torque at slower speeds.

Just my opinion, but I don't think you want a machine set up for running several thousand stitches per minute....at least not right now.

Next is service- from what I've read, $1500 isn't a bad price ($3k-$5k machine), but will you have to rebuild it? What about when something breaks? There's a lot to be said for a warranty. AFAIK, the major suppliers here are more than willing to help out with questions, purchase or not. How about accessories? Does it have a stand and motor, or is it head only?

There's lots of things to check on, I know, but if your mechanically inclined, have a bench and motor, etc, then a head only purchase might be a great deal. Personally, I'd be more inclined to add another $1k, and get a brand spanking new machine that has everything included, and comes set up ready to sew, but that's just me.

Oh, one little thing....

Welcome to Leatherworker.net!

Edited June 18, 2009 by TwinOaks

[esantoro]

I'd go for a new clone and customer service.

ed

[Art]

Hi Jamie,

Mike gave you good advice. You didn't give enough info on what you were buying, just the head (then it probably came out of a surplus auction) or a complete machine. The $1500 is a little low for a complete machine, but ok for a head in good shape. Remember that it is set up to do webbing. You will need a motor, speed reducer, maybe a stand, a new needle plate, maybe a smooth dog, maybe a new hook, and probably a needle bar, and some feet, miscellaneous belts and nuts and bolts. None of those things by themselves are cheap, then you have to install them.

Now a new 441 clone will run about $2695 and about $150 or so shipping and it will come setup to sew whatever you want. If you buy it in July, I understand there will be a sale with a whole bunch of extras thrown in.

Service is as important as the machine, read previous posts in this forum to figure out who is the customer service guru and will treat you right.

If you get an older Juki, don't try to time it using the Japanese instructions, and never even attempt timing one of the Chinese machines that way. Those folks don't speak Engrish very well and they are even worse at writing it. There is a seven step process that you can use to completely time the machine (and even that can be shortcutted to three or so most of the time). If you need to time it call Steve Tayrien and he'll tell you how. Ten or Twenty minutes on the phone with Steve can straighten most anything out.

Art

[Bob]

Jamie, this is easy. Assuming the 441 juki comes with a table and motor.... That would be my choice. The Japanese made awesome machines at that time. Just better parts and components. If it's working like he says it is, you shouldn't have to do anything with it. You can smooth off the feed dogs yourself with a file to work on your knife cases. Just so it don't leave tracks.

I own one of the older Japanese 441 Juki's made 10-15 years ago and won't trade it nothing they're making today. Regardless of customer service. If your the least bit mechanical you can fix it yourself and get the manual from proleptic.net. Save yourself half the price, and get a better machine too.

My humble oppion

[neelsaddlery]

Hmmm....Sounds a little too cheap to me. Those 441's hold their value. I'd be wary.

Tim

Just got back from the Weaver Auction, and they sold a complete Juki 441 with stand, motor, table, and machine head for $1200.00. It was used, but appeared to be all there and in good working condition.

The Weaver auction this year was definitely a buyer's market.

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

Cowboy Sewing Machines

[stoke]

Thanks for all the responses. The machine comes complete with the table and motor, ready to sew. The machine is in perfect shape according to him, he did say the table had a few bolts that were a little rough. The owner said if I wanted he could sew some leather and send email photos of it. He also told me he tried it on leather when he first got it and it did fine. I think he owned a shop near a military base and used it on bags and straps. He had four of the machines and has kept this one for himself. I don't think he has used it for quite a while.

As far as being able to work on it, I might be OK. I pretty much have a machine shop in the building where I work on my knives. Making or moding parts shouldn't be a problem...to a certain extent. Then again, it would be nice to be able pick up the phone and call someone for support. I'm going to check on the freight charges and speak to the owner tomorrow, I think he might even split the freight charges with me. He seems to need money for another purchase. Again, thanks for all the answers. I can see both sides of this. I'll let everyone know how this turns out. If the owner sends some good photos, I'll try to post them.

Jamie

[neelsaddlery]

If you need parts for this 441, please let me know, as we stock TONS of parts for our clone versions of this machine. With our version of the 441, we enjoy 100 percent parts interchangeability between our machine and the original Juki 441. All of our parts will fit it no problem.

We also stock all of the parts that you will need to get it set up to sew leather, such as left and right toe feet, double toe harness feet, slotted needle plates, holster plates, and stirrup plates.

If you need help with adjutsments and so forth, give me a call and I will help you out in any way I can.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Cowboy Sewing Machines

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

toll free: 1-866-507-8926

[stoke]

Well,

I still don't know what I'm going to do. I spoke with the owner today and asked about the motor set up. He told me that he thought it was set up for a single speed. He was pretty sure about it, but is going to check tonight. Has anyone ever heard of this for one of these machines?

Thanks,

Jamie

[Bob]

I'd be quite sure that the motor would be single speed. What else could it be? I've never seen a sewing machine with more than one speed. they all have a clutch motor that can be feathered, allowing you to control the speed.

[stoke]

Sorry I wasn't clear. He told me that it operated at one speed (slow) no matter how far or hard you pressed on the foot pedal. At least that's what he described and he said he was pretty sure about it. Not saying this dosen't exist, just I've never seen one like that.

Jamie

[neelsaddlery]

Hello:

You'll want to ask him if it has a speed reducer installed on it. The speed redcuer is a pulley that mounts underneath the tabletop. It slows down the sewing speed of the machine. That is the only way it could go really slow.

If it is just a regular clutch motor with no speed reducer, then the machine could so pretty fast, in the 500-800 SPM range.

The reducer will slow it down to 100-200 SPM or so.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Cowboy Sewing Machines

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

[Bob]

Jamie, it sure sounds like it does in deed have a speed reducer. That would be fantastic for making knife cases and small items. The only time you don't want a speed reducer is for long straight strips of sewing.

[Bree]

I own a Juki 1541. I love Juki machines. I also own many old Singer and White machines. My oldest machine is dated 1888. So I am a believer in the longevity of sewing machines.

That said... get a new one. You have 3 excellent sources for a reasonably priced 441 clone... Artisan, Neel's, and Cobra. They each stand behind the machines with service that doesn't stop. The machines are excellent quality and will last beyond your lifetime.

Pay a little more and get the service and the assurance that you have a brand spanking new machine. You won't regret it. You might regret getting the Juki 441... you don't know. That's why you are asking us... you are nervous about it.

Why take the risk?? Heck you run a risk just transferring the $$$ and getting delivery of the goods in an international transaction. Sleep easy and get the new machine.

If you don't like any of the sources mentioned there are also Raphael's in Montreal, Ferco, and Weaver... all very good North American sources for industrial machines of the class you seek... all provide outstanding service after the sale.

My $.02.

[bruce johnson]

Jamie,

If this guy is having to go check stuff you ask about, I am thinking he was not the user. I may be off base on this next part, but then again.....

If there is one speed and it is slow no matter how far you press the pedal, it may have a servo motor. The first servo motor I got didn't have a speed adjustment knob. I was merrily sewing along at a very comfortable pace, enjoying the control (one speed - slow). When I wanted to ramp up the speed for some straight projects, I called my supplier about a different speed reducer with the 3 pulleys. Didn't need it. The speed adjustment on that particular motor was done by turning a screw inside a small hole. The hole just appeared to be a ventilation hole or something - not particulary well marked. That opened up a whole new world of speed control. My later servos have a knob and dial. If this one goes one speed and slow, might be a servo with that early control.

As far as whether the deal is worth it, you just have to add up the machine and shipping and see where it falls. The price seems pretty good if everything works. One thing nobody else has mentioned, and it may not be a factor if you are just doing one thing is attachments. They are not inexpensive. As you use it you may find the need for other throat plate and presser feet combinations. I have about all of them for mine, and can say I have used them all.

[Cobra Steve]

Stoke, there is a reputable dealer in your area. If I were you, I would contact Tim Cox at Zack White Leather.1-800-633-0396. He sells a variety of leather stitchers that would suit your needs. He also sell all of the supplies you will need, and is a good guy. Thanks, Steve

[stoke]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their help. I ended up speaking with Artisan, Steve(Cobra), Ryan(Neels Saddlery) and Tim at Zack White Leather. I spent more time on this decision than I did on my last new truck. There were advantages to each machine and eveyone was super nice but the owner of the Juki 441 dropped his price again and I found a deal on shipping with a freight company. The machine was shipped from Oklahoma on Friday and was expected no later than July 6th. I got a suprise call this morning about 9:00am and was told it was on the dock. Picked it up today and had to make room for it as it was early. Finally got one of my building rearranged and unloaded it. The thing is a beast, I'd never seen one in person. I got it set up and had to try it out. I had some old strapping and sewed a couple layers of it no problem, I want to clean it up and make sure it is lubed real well before really trying it. The pulley has a drive ratio of about 8:1, I'd say. I looks like someone made it in a machine shop, so I'm not sure it it is stock or homemade. It is one speed, about 80 to 90 stitches per minute...slightly more than one stitcg per second. It also has a swing away arm that, I'm guessing helps hold the material. The machine looks like it has hardly been used at least compared to my Consew and Tacsew machines. I'll take some pics when I get a chance. I did get a sack full of needles, all one size, must be close to 100. Schmetz Nadlen 7x3 Nm230. I've got no clue about needle sizes for this machine, feel free to comment on the needles.

I know I went against almost everyones advise, but I just didn't have the extra money in my "fishing account". Even with shipping, I'm still right at $1,000 less than a new machine. I'm sure I'll end up with a couple different feet for it, but so far I'm pretty happy. As far as working on the machine, I've got a Juki dealer about 100 miles from me, anything else I can probably make the parts in my machine shop.

Thanks,

Jamie

[neelsaddlery]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their help. I ended up speaking with Artisan, Steve(Cobra), Ryan(Neels Saddlery) and Tim at Zack White Leather. I spent more time on this decision than I did on my last new truck. There were advantages to each machine and eveyone was super nice but the owner of the Juki 441 dropped his price again and I found a deal on shipping with a freight company. The machine was shipped from Oklahoma on Friday and was expected no later than July 6th. I got a suprise call this morning about 9:00am and was told it was on the dock. Picked it up today and had to make room for it as it was early. Finally got one of my building rearranged and unloaded it. The thing is a beast, I'd never seen one in person. I got it set up and had to try it out. I had some old strapping and sewed a couple layers of it no problem, I want to clean it up and make sure it is lubed real well before really trying it. The pulley has a drive ratio of about 8:1, I'd say. I looks like someone made it in a machine shop, so I'm not sure it it is stock or homemade. It is one speed, about 80 to 90 stitches per minute...slightly more than one stitcg per second. It also has a swing away arm that, I'm guessing helps hold the material. The machine looks like it has hardly been used at least compared to my Consew and Tacsew machines. I'll take some pics when I get a chance. I did get a sack full of needles, all one size, must be close to 100. Schmetz Nadlen 7x3 Nm230. I've got no clue about needle sizes for this machine, feel free to comment on the needles.

I know I went against almost everyones advise, but I just didn't have the extra money in my "fishing account". Even with shipping, I'm still right at $1,000 less than a new machine. I'm sure I'll end up with a couple different feet for it, but so far I'm pretty happy. As far as working on the machine, I've got a Juki dealer about 100 miles from me, anything else I can probably make the parts in my machine shop.

Thanks,

Jamie

If the needles are strictly labeled 7X3, then they are most likely they are for fabric. For leather point needles, you need to look for the designation of 7X4, or 794. These numbers indicate that the needle was meant for leather sewing, and usually they have some letter indicator that talks about the point type, such as DIA, RTW,S, LR, etc.

If you bought that machine delivered for at or under $1600.00, then I would say you did just fine. The Juki 441 is a very good machine, and it will last you for the rest of your life.

If you ever need any parts for that machine, please let me know, as we stock all different styles of presser feet and accessories to fit it, as well as all different types of parts.

As we discussed on the phone when you called me, our Cowboy (Neel's Saddlery) 441 is a 100 percent exact same copy of the Juki 441, so all of our parts will fit it exactly. The other clones have some small differences in their parts and manufacture which means that some parts may not cross over exactly.

If you need any help with your machine, please le me know. I will be glad to help you in any way I can.

ENJOY!!!!!!!

[stoke]

Last night I finally got everything set up and spent a couple hours with the machnie. I cleaned it up and lubed it, then fired it up. I'm going to have to raise the table, as it seems to be set up for a very small person. I tried a couple different threads/needles up to 346/347 thread and 27 needles, I think. Made a few ugly tangles before I got straightened out. So far I'm pretty happy with it, however I'm far from jumping on a new sheath, (it takes too long cutting them out and getting everything glued and clamped for me to mess one up just yet).......it sure acts a lot different than my other sewing machines. Seems everything works like it is supposed to, I may have to adjust the belt tension for sewing 1/2" stuff. It slipped a little when going really slow, but only on 4 layers. I'm sure I'll be adding different feet, feed dog and maybe a servo motor before too long. I did get it to make a very nice stitch, even adjusted down to where it almost cuts the leather in half, because the stitch was so close together.

First project is to make a cover for it, so the wife doesn't notice how big it is and put two and two together. The eight year old was there when I unloaded it, and so far hasn't spilled the beans.

Edited July 1, 2009 by stoke