Blevins - Horizontal. or Vertical

[Lee Jr]

How about some opinions of what you use for Blevins, Horizintal posts or Vertical posts and why and has anybody used the four post Blevins?

[hidepounder]

Lee,

I'm not a saddlemaker, but I am a user. I like the verticle Blevins. I'm a big guy and I worry about the horizontal buckles eventually weakening the sturrup leathers.

Bob

[Steve Brewer]

Lee,

I'm not a saddlemaker, but I am a user. I like the verticle Blevins. I'm a big guy and I worry about the horizontal buckles eventually weakening the sturrup leathers.

Bob

Lee,I like the verticle Blevins made of brass the best.The posts don't corrode and last lomger.Like Bob said they don't weaken the leather as much as the horizonal ones do.

Steve

[mulefool]

I'm with the vertical, too. I only use the horizontal for repairs where the stirrup leathers are already punched that way. Chris

[hidepounder]

I just love this place!!! Steve, I didn't even know they were available in brass!

Bob

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Hey Bob,

if you can't find the brass ones anywhere else, Weaver leather sells them.

Anyone else have problems with the keeper marking up the back of the stirrup leathers? I've talked to a number of guys who have the same problem with them. If your stirrup leathers have the grain side against the horse, the keepers sure can make a mess of the leather. Some guys say it's the pins of the plates and others say it's the sharp metal edges of the keepers.

Darc

[Steve Brewer]

Darc,I have had trouble with the Sleeves also.If they don't order Belvins,I use Superior buckles on almost every thing ordered with Quick change buckles

[kseidel]

Lee,I like the verticle Blevins made of brass the best.The posts don't corrode and last lomger.Like Bob said they don't weaken the leather as much as the horizonal ones do.

Steve

Bob and Steve,

Why do you believe vertical holes are stronger than horizontal? Many of us punch half holes in our stirrup leathers and the 2 1/2" vertical blevins with half holes are the most common to tear out. Even single holes punched vertically tear out fairly regularly. Both styles carry the weight on two posts, but the horizontal posts are not in line in the direction of the pull, and are in a different cross section of the stirrup leather. If you want the holes closer together for a shorter adjustment, the distance is dictated by the vertical post spacing, and half holes leave an empty hole between the posts, further weakening the leather in line with the pull. Horizontal holes can be closer together at the discretion of the saddlemaker, without being too close together.

I have seen lots of vertical holes torn out, and seldom a horizontal. The vertical are certainly the most common, but I have never considered them to be the strongest.

[hidepounder]

Hi Kieth,

You make some good points that I will have to think about. As I am not a saddlemaker, it is not something I've given a lot of thought to. I was always told the verticle buckles were stronger and I almost never see the horizonatal buckles on the roping saddles (90% of what I'm exposed to is for roping). I don't think I've noticed a horizonatal buckle on a saddle in years. I can confirm from my personal experience that the verticle holes in sturrup leathers will tear out, but everytime I have seen that happen it was on a junk set of leathers which I see all too much of on these production roping saddles or on a saddle where the sturrup leathers were worn thin. I personally have seen the leathers stretch enough that it is difficult to get the verticle Blevins buckled. I wouldn't imagine that would be an issue with horizontal buckles. My reasoning for thinking that the horizontal buckles would be weaker is much like sewing accross a strap weakens it. That is sort of comparing apples to oranges but it is what I had in mind (along with my pre-programming) :0)

Bob

[Steve Brewer]

Bob and Steve,

Why do you believe vertical holes are stronger than horizontal? Many of us punch half holes in our stirrup leathers and the 2 1/2" vertical blevins with half holes are the most common to tear out. Even single holes punched vertically tear out fairly regularly. Both styles carry the weight on two posts, but the horizontal posts are not in line in the direction of the pull, and are in a different cross section of the stirrup leather. If you want the holes closer together for a shorter adjustment, the distance is dictated by the vertical post spacing, and half holes leave an empty hole between the posts, further weakening the leather in line with the pull. Horizontal holes can be closer together at the discretion of the saddlemaker, without being too close together.

I have seen lots of vertical holes torn out, and seldom a horizontal. The vertical are certainly the most common, but I have never considered them to be the strongest.

Kieth,I see a lot of torn leathers both horizonal and vertical.Most were torn by hanging up a sturrip loading in and out of trailers or trucks.I see more problems with the sleeves eating latigos . I see your point on the hole spacing,laced leathers tend to wear well.

Steve

[Lee Jr]

Thanks everyone for your imput, I have been around a old timer that does everthing the way he was taught, which was lacing or using Al-Ray ( I think thats what they were called & you can not find them any more) adjustable buckes to the sturrip leathers, so when he was asked to adjustable buckels he always used horizontal holes, ( Blevins now ) he always used the best leather & the thickest side was were the holes were punched for the stirrup leather. I would always see verticles on other saddles & some had a second strip of latigo sewed over the strip were the holes were punched.

Thanks Lee Jr

[gtwister09]

Lee,

I have always used horizontals for stirrup leathers (either Al-Rays or horizontal Blevins). I waited a bit to write this due to the fact that I wanted to check on the status of 5 saddles that I did way back then.

Of course the first few that I did as replacements were for some older cowhands who needed new leathers and wanted to replace their laced leathers. Of course I was only about 14 at the time and just listened to their rants and raves about horizontal being better than vertical and that it was good enough for the laced ones...

However over the years I have to agree with Keith on this one. I have seen much more vertical holes torn out than horizontals under normal wear. Yet I agree with Steve that a hooked stirrup on an immovable object generally tears out whether horizontal or vertical. 2 of them are still being used heavily (only one of them by the original owner and the other one was handed down and still being used) and the other 3 are idle over the past due to the passing of the owners. Two of them have had leathers replaced due to being hooked on a trailer latch.

I did some further research into some of the saddlemaking books and articles to check and see what others were using. I haven't reviewed the videos from Bruce, Dale, Jeremiah, Bill and others to see what they used.

Yates, Jones and Adams all used vertical buckles exclusively.

Wilson in his short articles for the Leather Craftsman Magazine didn't devote any informaiton to it. Rice likewise didn't devote much information to stirrup leathers except for lacing.

Hopper shows plans for both horizontal and vertical but in all his photos only shows vertical buckles.

Stohlman's showed numerous styles (Laced. Al-Rays, Kregers & Superior Quick Change, both horizontal and vertical Blevins). Nowhere did they give any preference for horizontal or vertical holes. They also showed another style called Alan Farrow's Quick Change Adjuster which used an adapter that passed through two slots (cut out with oblong punches) and a strap passed through the adapter.

So there's more information for you.

Regards,

Ben

[Lee Jr]

Ben, thanks for the research & imput, Lee Jr

Lee,

I have always used horizontals for stirrup leathers (either Al-Rays or horizontal Blevins). I waited a bit to write this due to the fact that I wanted to check on the status of 5 saddles that I did way back then.

Of course the first few that I did as replacements were for some older cowhands who needed new leathers and wanted to replace their laced leathers. Of course I was only about 14 at the time and just listened to their rants and raves about horizontal being better than vertical and that it was good enough for the laced ones...

However over the years I have to agree with Keith on this one. I have seen much more vertical holes torn out than horizontals under normal wear. Yet I agree with Steve that a hooked stirrup on an immovable object generally tears out whether horizontal or vertical. 2 of them are still being used heavily (only one of them by the original owner and the other one was handed down and still being used) and the other 3 are idle over the past due to the passing of the owners. Two of them have had leathers replaced due to being hooked on a trailer latch.

I did some further research into some of the saddlemaking books and articles to check and see what others were using. I haven't reviewed the videos from Bruce, Dale, Jeremiah, Bill and others to see what they used.

Yates, Jones and Adams all used vertical buckles exclusively.

Wilson in his short articles for the Leather Craftsman Magazine didn't devote any informaiton to it. Rice likewise didn't devote much information to stirrup leathers except for lacing.

Hopper shows plans for both horizontal and vertical but in all his photos only shows vertical buckles.

Stohlman's showed numerous styles (Laced. Al-Rays, Kregers & Superior Quick Change, both horizontal and vertical Blevins). Nowhere did they give any preference for horizontal or vertical holes. They also showed another style called Alan Farrow's Quick Change Adjuster which used an adapter that passed through two slots (cut out with oblong punches) and a strap passed through the adapter.

So there's more information for you.

Regards,

Ben

[Timbo]

Just to throw another .02 into the ring......Ron of Rons Tools has a set of stirrup adjusters he just came out with that sound a lot like the Farrow adjusters mentioned in the post above. You cut 3/4" slots with a bag punch and the adjuster goes thru 2 of them at a time and a latigo string holds them in place on the back side. I picked up a set from him at the Fall CSMA gathering and he even includes a pattern for the end of the leathers. What I like best about them is the simplicity and light weight of them. Oh and his pattern allows for the twist in the end of the leathers and they look really clean when installed. They rivet in or can be sewn in and the rivet holes are sized so that you don't have to use a burr on them.

Tim

[oldtimer]

Bob and Steve,

Why do you believe vertical holes are stronger than horizontal? Many of us punch half holes in our stirrup leathers and the 2 1/2" vertical blevins with half holes are the most common to tear out. Even single holes punched vertically tear out fairly regularly. Both styles carry the weight on two posts, but the horizontal posts are not in line in the direction of the pull, and are in a different cross section of the stirrup leather. If you want the holes closer together for a shorter adjustment, the distance is dictated by the vertical post spacing, and half holes leave an empty hole between the posts, further weakening the leather in line with the pull. Horizontal holes can be closer together at the discretion of the saddlemaker, without being too close together.

I have seen lots of vertical holes torn out, and seldom a horizontal. The vertical are certainly the most common, but I have never considered them to be the strongest.

Why punch half holes ? I can´t see the need of it ! It just weakens the leather, and makes only a small difference in adjustment.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

OK, here comes my $.02. Actually there a lot of good comments for all the styles, and all have their good and bad points, so, what I try to do is taylor the style I use to the need of the individual that I am making the saddle for. For instance if it is a cutting saddle and the guy is really "into it", I will recomend that I use lacing, because it will give him little weight, good strength, and maximum flexability with virtually now "bunching under the fender" on the stirrup leathers/fenders combo. A calfroper will get vertical blevins with a rawhide strip sewn in on the back side and "full leathers" rather than 1/2 leathers for maximum strength, and a pleasure saddle will get 1/2 leathers with vertical blevins and so on. Of course, my saddles are custom made so what the customer wants (i.e. custom) is what the customer gets, as long as it is safe. I think there is no correct answer here, just a lot of points of view to use to make your decision.

Bondo Bob

[kseidel]

Why punch half holes ? I can´t see the need of it ! It just weakens the leather, and makes only a small difference in adjustment.

Many riders will adjust their stirrup length for different events or when changing between larger and smaller horses. Full holes are too much adjustment and half holes allow for this fine tuning. You are right that it does weaken the leathers, and most riders do not get any advantage from the half holes.

Respectfully,

Keith

[bruce johnson]

Why punch half holes ? I can´t see the need of it ! It just weakens the leather, and makes only a small difference in adjustment.

Knut,

In theory, I don't think half holes make much of a difference. Some difference when you have a leather that stretches more on one side than the other mostly. A full hole is too much difference then.

In reality, the people who want them are ususally putting a 15-1/2" butt into a 16-1/2" seat. They have more slide in the seat than that less than 1/4" stirrup adjustment will ever matter. Even prestretched leathers can have that much diffference from one side to the other after a while, and the riders have compensated all along. It is mostly a mind deal, and if you don't punch them - they will.

I used to see guys sharing bronc saddles. One guy would put a piece of Coke cup under the stirrup pin on one side to fine tune adjust it. How much difference do you think a coke cup thickness would make there??

I just use the heaviest leathers I can cram through the Blevins slide. I don't use half leathers - personal deal, but I have seen the wrecks and and field repairs. I don't think a strip of 4 oz latigo glued and sewn on to thinner leather to reinforce is anything more than perfume on a pig. That latigo will stretch more the leathers ever thought about and the glue ain't holding past about the time it takes to sew it down.

I use 2" on some short-legged barrel racer and saddles, 2-1/2" on most of the arena saddles, and 3" on the roping/cowboying saddles.

[oldtimer]

Many riders will adjust their stirrup length for different events or when changing between larger and smaller horses. Full holes are too much adjustment and half holes allow for this fine tuning. You are right that it does weaken the leathers, and most riders do not get any advantage from the half holes.

Respectfully,

Keith

The difference in length is half the distance between the holes so ...

" A lot of noice for a handful of wool, said the man who cut the hair off the sow!"

/ Knut

Edited December 19, 2009 by oldtimer

[lottarope]

As far as half holes go when your the one in the rocket seat if you think it helps it does. Also suppose one of your stirrup leathers has stretched a 1/4 inch every stride one leather will take more weight first. Try an experiment standing for an hour with one foot shimmed up a 1/4 to a half inch. Another reason people will use half holes is for a lot of us one leg is longer than the other and how you may ask does a sports medicine guy deal with runners with this problem well one way is to shim one shoe.

I also sometimes wonder why we are so obsessed with strength in leathers. While I've never measured them the leathers on English saddles can't be more than about 1 1/2 are they? That being questioned I still use 3" leathers from the top of the hide and the heaviest leather I can get. Does give food for thought though.

As far as strength I would have to say the horizontal buckles seem to hold up better from what I've seen. I especially noticed this on dude saddles which get used pretty hard and take a lot of weather. I would have to agree with others on here that the majority of busted leathers I've seen we're due to wrecks not honest wear. The other major reason I've seen them wore out is poor design and construction.