Needle help

[skipj]

My Artisan manual for the 4000R says to use Schmetz brand needles size 794 D or S,NM:160 or 160 size 33 or 24, Canu 53:20MF1. Are the NM and Canu different brands of needle? Also, for heaver leather it say us 794 D of at least #25 (200). I thought the 794 was a certain size needle with a D point or do they come in different diamenters? Just got the machine and would like to order some different needles for various thickness of leather or fabric.

Thanks,

SkipJ

[tonyc1]

My Artisan manual for the 4000R says to use Schmetz brand needles size 794 D or S,NM:160 or 160 size 33 or 24, Canu 53:20MF1. Are the NM and Canu different brands of needle? Also, for heaver leather it say us 794 D of at least #25 (200). I thought the 794 was a certain size needle with a D point or do they come in different diamenters? Just got the machine and would like to order some different needles for various thickness of leather or fabric.

Thanks,

SkipJ

Skip, I think 794 refers to the system.

Tony.

[skipj]

I'm even more confused, Systems?

SkipJ

[tonyc1]

I'm even more confused, Systems?

SkipJ

Needle system.

[Art]

Hi Skip,

There are Systems and there are sizes.

794 is a system

7X3 is a system almost identical to the 794 except conical point for webbing

Canu 53:20MF1 is also a system similar to the above

D is a diamond point

S is a spear point

NM is the Metric needle shaft diameter (the base that goes in the machine is always 2.5mm for the 794 system). In the example 160 is 1.60mm

The number 33 or 24 really should have read 23 or 24 which are Singer needle sizes and would correspond to a NM size of 160 or 180. A 33 would be a NM size 400 which is out of the range of the 794 system and would be a honking 4mm wide needle.

When ordering needles you say or write 1 10 pack or 794D needles Size 160 or Size 23 (They should know the 23 is a Singer size.

Ok now, these are sizes for Needle/Thread. This is for production, balls to the wall sewing and for less than that you may be able to use the next smaller needle. As you get more experience, you can run off the tracks a little.

nm120 Singer 19 69/69

nm140 Singer 22 138/92 or 92/92

nm160 Singer 23 138/138

nm180 Singer 24 207/138

nm200 Singer 25 207/207

nm230 Singer 26 277/277 or 346/277 or even 346/346

nm250 Singer 27 415/346 or 415/415

The above table gives you PLENTY of room, like I said, when you get some stitching under your belt you can go smaller for a tighter looking stitch, however if you go too far, needle breakage gets more prevalent.

You should not expect to sew the entire range above without some serious adjustments, you will probably have to shim the shuttle to get into the smaller sizes, but you can try, it won't hurt anything but your patience.

Have Fun,

Art

My Artisan manual for the 4000R says to use Schmetz brand needles size 794 D or S,NM:160 or 160 size 33 or 24, Canu 53:20MF1. Are the NM and Canu different brands of needle? Also, for heaver leather it say us 794 D of at least #25 (200). I thought the 794 was a certain size needle with a D point or do they come in different diamenters? Just got the machine and would like to order some different needles for various thickness of leather or fabric.

Thanks,

SkipJ

[skipj]

art the 33 was my typo is should have been 23. I'm still not clear what a needle system consists of. Does it describe the shank dia and length of the needles? The #25 (200) throws me. I looked up the Schmetz page and can't find system 794 listed. Is the #25 the singer needle size and the 200 refer to NM?

Thanks,

SkipJ

[bcurrier]

7X3 is a system almost identical to the 794 except conical point for webbing

I believe 7X3 is available in a number of different point types.

Bill

[Art]

Hi Skip,

There are about 5 different methodologies or "different" needle systems. While one can make a little sense out of the Canu system, in all it is hard to figure what madness possessed the demented folks who created them. I'm sure it was perfectly clear to them at the time.

The Schmetz website is a pure PIA to navigate. I can easily find the 794 S and 794 LR, but I know they also make a D and Rlr. There is more help at info@schmetz.com.

#25 is the Singer way of signifying the size or diameter of the needle. 200 is the nm way to specify diameter. See table in prior email, I give nm size then Singer size.

Art

art the 33 was my typo is should have been 23. I'm still not clear what a needle system consists of. Does it describe the shank dia and length of the needles? The #25 (200) throws me. I looked up the Schmetz page and can't find system 794 listed. Is the #25 the singer needle size and the 200 refer to NM?

Thanks,

SkipJ

[Art]

S and BP (ball point) are the only ones I've seen readily in 7X3, however DYx3 has a bunch and they are all the same dimensions anyway.

Art

I believe 7X3 is available in a number of different point types.

Bill

[tonyc1]

Hi Skip,

There are about 5 different methodologies or "different" needle systems. While one can make a little sense out of the Canu system, in all it is hard to figure what madness possessed the demented folks who created them. I'm sure it was perfectly clear to them at the time.

The Schmetz website is a pure PIA to navigate. I can easily find the 794 S and 794 LR, but I know they also make a D and Rlr. There is more help at info@schmetz.com.

#25 is the Singer way of signifying the size or diameter of the needle. 200 is the nm way to specify diameter. See table in prior email, I give nm size then Singer size.

Art

Art, all this talk made me go and have a look at the needle packets I have but have never taken notice of as I just tell the traveller what I want and he knows all the terms and names for the diff. types. Anyway mine are all Schmetz. One packet says Canu; 180 size 24 as well as 794 LR which is what we call Leather point or Twist and also DYX3 LR. The other pakets are 7x3 160 which we call canvas point and the others are 794S, 794 LL, 794 LR and 7X2 NTW #250. It's easy to see how confusing they are especially to someone just starting out. I just tell the traveller what I want as it's much less confusing. All of these needles work well in my Adler 205 so I guess that's all that matters! I suppose some people would read this and say what thell are they talking about!!

Tony.

[Art]

Hi Tony,

Those are all good numbers except maybe the 7x2 NTW #250 which is probably more like a 10 penny nail. I think the Canu for the 794 is a 53:20MF1 and the nm180 is a Size 24 Singer. I am really worried now as most of this stuff makes sense to me in a weird sort of way.

Art

Art, all this talk made me go and have a look at the needle packets I have but have never taken notice of as I just tell the traveller what I want and he knows all the terms and names for the diff. types. Anyway mine are all Schmetz. One packet says Canu; 180 size 24 as well as 794 LR which is what we call Leather point or Twist and also DYX3 LR. The other pakets are 7x3 160 which we call canvas point and the others are 794S, 794 LL, 794 LR and 7X2 NTW #250. It's easy to see how confusing they are especially to someone just starting out. I just tell the traveller what I want as it's much less confusing. All of these needles work well in my Adler 205 so I guess that's all that matters! I suppose some people would read this and say what thell are they talking about!!

Tony.

[tonyc1]

Hi Tony,

Those are all good numbers except maybe the 7x2 NTW #250 which is probably more like a 10 penny nail. I think the Canu for the 794 is a 53:20MF1 and the nm180 is a Size 24 Singer. I am really worried now as most of this stuff makes sense to me in a weird sort of way.

Art

Much easier in the old days with Pearsons when the numbers were 4,5,6,7 and 8 with 1/2 sizes in between and thread was like 4 cord, 6 cord etc,eh?

Tony.

[skipj]

Thanks everyone for the help. I'm ok as long as there isn't an exam on the subject :>) Is the 794 as Schmetz system? Does it matter. I'm asking somewhat out of curiosity. If I order a 794 D needle will it be a certain diameter needle with a D point shape or do I need to add more info like NM or Singer size? I seems some of the discriptions are redundant like #25 (200).

Again thanks,

SkipJ

[bcurrier]

I don't know offhand if 794 was originated by Schmetz or not.

By specifying a 794, you're asking for a needle with a 2.5mm shank (the part that goes into the needle bar) and 60mm from the end of the shank (top of the needle as installed in the machine) to top of the eye. For practical purposes, you can consider size primarily as the diameter of the shaft (or lower portion of the needle), and you ALWAYS need to specify the size in addition to the system and point type. It doesn't matter whether you give the metric or Singer size.

The point type (D in your example) refers to both the shape and orientation of the point.

Think of needle systems this way - a system is a set of needle specifications, basically EXCEPT for the size and point type. Things the system can specify are the shank size, length of the shank to the shaft, shaft length, length of the groove (width of the groove varies with needle size), size of the scarf, orientation of the scarf, taper specs on various parts of the needle, curvature for certain needles, etc.

You're 100% correct about redundancy. Size on packages is almost always given in both metric and Singer size, and others as well for specialized types of needles that historically had their own sizing schemes. You almost always also see more than one system on a package because there are equivalent systems for most needle types.

Bill

Edited March 21, 2008 by bcurrier

[Art]

Hi Skip,

As I said in my original post:

When ordering needles you say or write 1 10 pack of 794D needles Size 160 or Size 23 (They should know the 23 is a Singer size and the 160 is NM).

System 794 (and Systems DYx3, 7x3, and Canu 53:20) all have a shank diameter of 2.50mm (shank is the butt end that goes into the machine) and a distance from the Butt of the needle to the eye of the needle of 60mm. The shaft or blade diameter (the part the eye is in) is the size measured above the eye and and scarf and is specified in hundredths of a millimeter (mm) and is called the NM (remember Number Metric) size. Sizes for the 794 system in NM run from 100 to 250 and occasionally over 250, however anything outside 120 to 250 may be hard to find, and extremes always require some machine adjustment.

Although there is definitely some culprit that developed these systems, none of them seem really anxious to own-up to the deed. Singer is the only one that will say "yeah, we did that" on the SY system at least, but I digress.

Remember

794D and the size like 180 and you can get as many of the correct needle as you need.

Art

Thanks everyone for the help. I'm ok as long as there isn't an exam on the subject :>) Is the 794 as Schmetz system? Does it matter. I'm asking somewhat out of curiosity. If I order a 794 D needle will it be a certain diameter needle with a D point shape or do I need to add more info like NM or Singer size? I seems some of the discriptions are redundant like #25 (200).

Again thanks,

SkipJ

[Intrepid]

Hi Skip,

There are Systems and there are sizes.

794 is a system

7X3 is a system almost identical to the 794 except conical point for webbing

Canu 53:20MF1 is also a system similar to the above

D is a diamond point

S is a spear point

NM is the Metric needle shaft diameter (the base that goes in the machine is always 2.5mm for the 794 system). In the example 160 is 1.60mm

The number 33 or 24 really should have read 23 or 24 which are Singer needle sizes and would correspond to a NM size of 160 or 180. A 33 would be a NM size 400 which is out of the range of the 794 system and would be a honking 4mm wide needle.

When ordering needles you say or write 1 10 pack or 794D needles Size 160 or Size 23 (They should know the 23 is a Singer size.

Ok now, these are sizes for Needle/Thread. This is for production, balls to the wall sewing and for less than that you may be able to use the next smaller needle. As you get more experience, you can run off the tracks a little.

nm120 Singer 19 69/69

nm140 Singer 22 138/92 or 92/92

nm160 Singer 23 138/138

nm180 Singer 24 207/138

nm200 Singer 25 207/207

nm230 Singer 26 277/277 or 346/277 or even 346/346

nm250 Singer 27 415/346 or 415/415

The above table gives you PLENTY of room, like I said, when you get some stitching under your belt you can go smaller for a tighter looking stitch, however if you go too far, needle breakage gets more prevalent.

You should not expect to sew the entire range above without some serious adjustments, you will probably have to shim the shuttle to get into the smaller sizes, but you can try, it won't hurt anything but your patience.

Have Fun,

Art

I found this while looking for an explanation of the various letters designations which has a real nice examples of the stitches to go along with it. It explains the various points, appearances of stitches, and which needles produce a strong stitch in which fabrics.

http://www.groz-beck...ter_376_low.pdf

[Ladykahu]

That linked pdf file is great for an explanation on the cutting ends of needles ... thanks for that

Natalie