Moderator Art Posted March 21, 2008 Moderator Report Posted March 21, 2008 Hi Tony, Those are all good numbers except maybe the 7x2 NTW #250 which is probably more like a 10 penny nail. I think the Canu for the 794 is a 53:20MF1 and the nm180 is a Size 24 Singer. I am really worried now as most of this stuff makes sense to me in a weird sort of way. Art Art, all this talk made me go and have a look at the needle packets I have but have never taken notice of as I just tell the traveller what I want and he knows all the terms and names for the diff. types. Anyway mine are all Schmetz. One packet says Canu; 180 size 24 as well as 794 LR which is what we call Leather point or Twist and also DYX3 LR. The other pakets are 7x3 160 which we call canvas point and the others are 794S, 794 LL, 794 LR and 7X2 NTW #250. It's easy to see how confusing they are especially to someone just starting out. I just tell the traveller what I want as it's much less confusing. All of these needles work well in my Adler 205 so I guess that's all that matters! I suppose some people would read this and say what thell are they talking about!! Tony. Quote For heaven's sakes pilgrim, make yourself a strop!
Members tonyc1 Posted March 21, 2008 Members Report Posted March 21, 2008 Hi Tony,Those are all good numbers except maybe the 7x2 NTW #250 which is probably more like a 10 penny nail. I think the Canu for the 794 is a 53:20MF1 and the nm180 is a Size 24 Singer. I am really worried now as most of this stuff makes sense to me in a weird sort of way. Art Much easier in the old days with Pearsons when the numbers were 4,5,6,7 and 8 with 1/2 sizes in between and thread was like 4 cord, 6 cord etc,eh? Tony. Quote
Members skipj Posted March 21, 2008 Author Members Report Posted March 21, 2008 Thanks everyone for the help. I'm ok as long as there isn't an exam on the subject :>) Is the 794 as Schmetz system? Does it matter. I'm asking somewhat out of curiosity. If I order a 794 D needle will it be a certain diameter needle with a D point shape or do I need to add more info like NM or Singer size? I seems some of the discriptions are redundant like #25 (200). Again thanks, SkipJ Quote
Members bcurrier Posted March 21, 2008 Members Report Posted March 21, 2008 (edited) I don't know offhand if 794 was originated by Schmetz or not. By specifying a 794, you're asking for a needle with a 2.5mm shank (the part that goes into the needle bar) and 60mm from the end of the shank (top of the needle as installed in the machine) to top of the eye. For practical purposes, you can consider size primarily as the diameter of the shaft (or lower portion of the needle), and you ALWAYS need to specify the size in addition to the system and point type. It doesn't matter whether you give the metric or Singer size. The point type (D in your example) refers to both the shape and orientation of the point. Think of needle systems this way - a system is a set of needle specifications, basically EXCEPT for the size and point type. Things the system can specify are the shank size, length of the shank to the shaft, shaft length, length of the groove (width of the groove varies with needle size), size of the scarf, orientation of the scarf, taper specs on various parts of the needle, curvature for certain needles, etc. You're 100% correct about redundancy. Size on packages is almost always given in both metric and Singer size, and others as well for specialized types of needles that historically had their own sizing schemes. You almost always also see more than one system on a package because there are equivalent systems for most needle types. Bill Edited March 21, 2008 by bcurrier Quote
Moderator Art Posted March 21, 2008 Moderator Report Posted March 21, 2008 Hi Skip, As I said in my original post: When ordering needles you say or write 1 10 pack of 794D needles Size 160 or Size 23 (They should know the 23 is a Singer size and the 160 is NM). System 794 (and Systems DYx3, 7x3, and Canu 53:20) all have a shank diameter of 2.50mm (shank is the butt end that goes into the machine) and a distance from the Butt of the needle to the eye of the needle of 60mm. The shaft or blade diameter (the part the eye is in) is the size measured above the eye and and scarf and is specified in hundredths of a millimeter (mm) and is called the NM (remember Number Metric) size. Sizes for the 794 system in NM run from 100 to 250 and occasionally over 250, however anything outside 120 to 250 may be hard to find, and extremes always require some machine adjustment. Although there is definitely some culprit that developed these systems, none of them seem really anxious to own-up to the deed. Singer is the only one that will say "yeah, we did that" on the SY system at least, but I digress. Remember 794D and the size like 180 and you can get as many of the correct needle as you need. Art Thanks everyone for the help. I'm ok as long as there isn't an exam on the subject :>) Is the 794 as Schmetz system? Does it matter. I'm asking somewhat out of curiosity. If I order a 794 D needle will it be a certain diameter needle with a D point shape or do I need to add more info like NM or Singer size? I seems some of the discriptions are redundant like #25 (200). Again thanks, SkipJ Quote For heaven's sakes pilgrim, make yourself a strop!
Members Intrepid Posted November 22, 2011 Members Report Posted November 22, 2011 Hi Skip, There are Systems and there are sizes. 794 is a system 7X3 is a system almost identical to the 794 except conical point for webbing Canu 53:20MF1 is also a system similar to the above D is a diamond point S is a spear point NM is the Metric needle shaft diameter (the base that goes in the machine is always 2.5mm for the 794 system). In the example 160 is 1.60mm The number 33 or 24 really should have read 23 or 24 which are Singer needle sizes and would correspond to a NM size of 160 or 180. A 33 would be a NM size 400 which is out of the range of the 794 system and would be a honking 4mm wide needle. When ordering needles you say or write 1 10 pack or 794D needles Size 160 or Size 23 (They should know the 23 is a Singer size. Ok now, these are sizes for Needle/Thread. This is for production, balls to the wall sewing and for less than that you may be able to use the next smaller needle. As you get more experience, you can run off the tracks a little. nm120 Singer 19 69/69 nm140 Singer 22 138/92 or 92/92 nm160 Singer 23 138/138 nm180 Singer 24 207/138 nm200 Singer 25 207/207 nm230 Singer 26 277/277 or 346/277 or even 346/346 nm250 Singer 27 415/346 or 415/415 The above table gives you PLENTY of room, like I said, when you get some stitching under your belt you can go smaller for a tighter looking stitch, however if you go too far, needle breakage gets more prevalent. You should not expect to sew the entire range above without some serious adjustments, you will probably have to shim the shuttle to get into the smaller sizes, but you can try, it won't hurt anything but your patience. Have Fun, Art I found this while looking for an explanation of the various letters designations which has a real nice examples of the stitches to go along with it. It explains the various points, appearances of stitches, and which needles produce a strong stitch in which fabrics. http://www.groz-beck...ter_376_low.pdf Quote
Ladykahu Posted November 23, 2011 Report Posted November 23, 2011 That linked pdf file is great for an explanation on the cutting ends of needles ... thanks for that Natalie Quote Insanity is hereditory, you get it from your kids
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