hand sewing and left/right twist

[jimsaddler]

I use the same thread in my machines as when handsewing, and I have never seen any sign of unraveling. I use Barbours bonded nylon plus a sticky wax - no problem. I think the problem might occur when using linen thread which is poorly waxed, but I have never been up to it - so far.

Hi Oldtimer

If you look at the Knife Sheaf in the photo you'll see that the Thread has a straighter lay than when it is on the Spool. This is what I mean by unraveling. The Holster thread is hard to pick up with my eyesight. As explained in the post by CampbellRandell. There is the same tendency in Hand Sewing although most wont spot it. The lay actually becomes straighter as you sew. Please have an experiment with both twists S & Z and you'll see what I mean. I now am using a .8mm or 1.mm Polly Braid for some Sewing which doesn't seem to have any problem, except I have to use bigger needles than for wax ends. I've got some Italian Siliconised / waxed thread that is looking very good as it is rounder in profile so looks finer.

I hope this is not confusing and maybe some help.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[ToddB 68]

Hi

Simply put. Right Handed Sewers should use Right Hand S Twist and the thread will maintain it's twist as you sew.. If you use Z Left twist it will unravel as you sew. If you're a Lefty use the Z. Have a try and you'll see what happens.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

Hi Jim !

I'm just getting started on my first leatherworking project (a complete newbie). I have designed a leather sheath for a 12" long digging tool. I have a vegetable tanned cowhide side section, approximately 9 oz. thickness and plan on hand stitching with Waxed Linen thread.

I bought Al Stohlman's book titled The Art of Hand Sewing Leather , copyright 1977, and the instructions beginning on page #8 show using both hands with a needle in each hand. Since the illustrations show the right hand holding the awl, I would presume the worker is right-handed, but the left hand is also sewing with the same length of thread. Now, if that thread were a right hand S twist, that would be correct for the worker's right hand, but not correct for the worker's left hand. What will prevent the thread being sewn with the left hand from unraveling ? I'm no doubt missing something. Can you smarten me up ?

Thanks,

Todd

[jimsaddler]

Hi Jim !

I'm just getting started on my first leatherworking project (a complete newbie). I have designed a leather sheath for a 12" long digging tool. I have a vegetable tanned cowhide side section, approximately 9 oz. thickness and plan on hand stitching with Waxed Linen thread.

I bought Al Stohlman's book titled The Art of Hand Sewing Leather , copyright 1977, and the instructions beginning on page #8 show using both hands with a needle in each hand. Since the illustrations show the right hand holding the awl, I would presume the worker is right-handed, but the left hand is also sewing with the same length of thread. Now, if that thread were a right hand S twist, that would be correct for the worker's right hand, but not correct for the worker's left hand. What will prevent the thread being sewn with the left hand from unraveling ? I'm no doubt missing something. Can you smarten me up ?

Thanks,

Todd

Hi Todd

Saddle Stitching is done with the 2 Needles, Right. If you are right handed you hold the Awl in yr Rt hand and a needle in each hand. A lfet hander will hold the Awl in his Left hand etc.

What happens is when you push the Awl through the Leather you return the left needle into the hole as the Awl is withdrawn. without puting the Awl down you pick up the left needle and pull it through until about 5" of thread comes with it then you lay the Right Needle on the Thread and allow the needle to be withdrawn back into the hole where you can pick it up with left hand and pull the thread through. At this point I throw the left thread up and over the needle and pull both threads through and set the tension that makes for a neat stitch. The idea of throwing the left thread over is to from the same slope on back and front of the sewing, which looks much better and also forms a Knot inside the leather for extra strength.

I hope that this is not too confusing for you.

The good news is that I am in the middle of getting a new Workshop built so I'll have room to set up a clear section (old shop is crowded out) for taking Photo's of stitching etc. As soon as I can I'll get a set done showing all the proper steps and post them.

Please have a Happy Day.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[ToddB 68]

Hi Todd

Saddle Stitching is done with the 2 Needles, Right. If you are right handed you hold the Awl in yr Rt hand and a needle in each hand. A lfet hander will hold the Awl in his Left hand etc.

What happens is when you push the Awl through the Leather you return the left needle into the hole as the Awl is withdrawn. without puting the Awl down you pick up the left needle and pull it through until about 5" of thread comes with it then you lay the Right Needle on the Thread and allow the needle to be withdrawn back into the hole where you can pick it up with left hand and pull the thread through. At this point I throw the left thread up and over the needle and pull both threads through and set the tension that makes for a neat stitch. The idea of throwing the left thread over is to from the same slope on back and front of the sewing, which looks much better and also forms a Knot inside the leather for extra strength.

I hope that this is not too confusing for you.

The good news is that I am in the middle of getting a new Workshop built so I'll have room to set up a clear section (old shop is crowded out) for taking Photo's of stitching etc. As soon as I can I'll get a set done showing all the proper steps and post them.

Please have a Happy Day.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

Jim,

I'm not sure we are "on the same page". My post was regarding thread twist, as discussed in your post 10-06-2009 9:32 AM to MADMAX22, which I pasted below.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hi

Simply put. Right Handed Sewers should use Right Hand S Twist and the thread will maintain it's twist as you sew.. If you use Z Left twist it will unravel as you sew. If you're a Lefty use the Z. Have a try and you'll see what happens.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I also pasted my post below for your perusal.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hi Jim !

I'm just getting started on my first leatherworking project (a complete newbie). I have designed a leather sheath for a 12" long digging tool. I have a vegetable tanned cowhide side section, approximately 9 oz. thickness and plan on hand stitching with Waxed Linen thread.

I bought Al Stohlman's book titled The Art of Hand Sewing Leather , copyright 1977, and the instructions beginning on page #8 show using both hands with a needle in each hand. Since the illustrations show the right hand holding the awl, I would presume the worker is right-handed, but the left hand is also sewing with the same length of thread. Now, if that thread were a right hand S twist, that would be correct for the worker's right hand, but not correct for the worker's left hand. What will prevent the thread being sewn with the left hand from unraveling ? I'm no doubt missing something. Can you smarten me up ?

Thanks,

Todd

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So Jim, with reference to my above paragraph, beginning with "I bought Al Stohlman's book........", can you answer the question, i.e. What will prevent the thread (referring to Right Hand S Twist thread), being sewn with the left hand, from unraveling ?

I do appreciate your description of the 2-needle process and especially the benefits of "throwing the left thread up and over the needle", etc..

Reading and understanding your description of the process wasn't confusing, but for me, doing it might be a challenge ! lol

Your new workshop sounds exciting and I will be watching for the sewing photos !

Thanks and I look forward to your reply Jim.

Best Regards,

Todd

Edited October 22, 2009 by ToddB68

[Lippy]

The subject of thread twist is still puzzling to my tiny brain.

First off, I've got several spools of English linen thread that is "reverse" twist. Is that the same as "left" or "z" twist?

Second question, can someone please explain the physics behind why a "rightie" should use the "s" or "right" twist.

Is it the insertion of the awl on the right or left side that makes the difference?

Cheers & Happy New Year!

[nthe10ring]

I am right handed and have been looking for some right twist 5 cord linen an don't seem to be able to find it, most of the suppliers have 6 cord in either left or right. I havent used a lot of the linen but recently purchased a couple of small bits of 4 and 5 cord and like it. Mostly I have used synthetics and have been splitting and rounding a smaller thread form the larger fibre threads.

Thanks

Jerry Fisher

[RandyScott]

I am right handed and have been looking for some right twist 5 cord linen an don't seem to be able to find it, most of the suppliers have 6 cord in either left or right. I havent used a lot of the linen but recently purchased a couple of small bits of 4 and 5 cord and like it. Mostly I have used synthetics and have been splitting and rounding a smaller thread form the larger fibre threads.

Thanks

Jerry Fisher

Campbell-Bosworth carries 5 cord left twist linen thread but not right twist - see this link: http://www.campbell-bosworth.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/6_71_73?osCsid=6funrp8ns28q5o8mgjeut4ef76

[JDM]

I'm facing the same quandary as the original poster. I want Barbour 5 cord linen thread, but I've only found it available in left twist.

Some say twist doesn't matter for hand sewing. A few say it does. I have a theory how both can be right.

Many don't throw in an overhand knot where the threads cross. Stohlman's book doesn't say anything about doing so. They just pass the threads past each other. For them, I doubt thread twist matters.

Those who do add in an overhand knot throw the thread "up and over" the needle as Jim mentioned previously. However, direction matters. If you are a righty and throw up and over from bottom to top and toward the direction of stitch travel, that is a clockwise motion around the needle as viewed from the left side. If you are a lefty and do the same movement in relation to the work (mirror image), that is a counterclockwise motion.

If you throw "up and over" the other direction, reverse those.

Left (Z) thread unravels when twisted clockwise. So, a right hander making clockwise "up and overs" is unraveling the thread. Or, at least has the potential to. I suspect the tightness of the holes, how waxed the thread is, and how much thread remains to be drawn up when the overhand knot is formed may also be factors.

I'm not sure what thread to buy. I'd have to go up to 6 cord to get right hand twist.

Edited August 6, 2011 by JDM

[jimsaddler]

Hi JDH

Some time ago I wrote that I was experimenting with Braided Threads for Hand Sewing. Well I feel confident enough now to say that it is very useful for Hand Sewing. Also it overcomes the problem caused by S or Z twist.

First a comment on the availability of "S" Twist or Right hand twist. There was a Barbours S twist made for Chain Stitch Machines, but I've not seen that for years. Also there was a Silo fine Thread made for fine Hand Sewing, Also extinct. That was not a worry as most good Saddlers made their Threads on the Knee to suit the job in hand. Now comes the worry of getting decent Linen Hemp in #15. The Dealers only carry #12 or Common, which are both too coarse for fine Threads.

Your are nearly right about the throwing the "back Stitch" If it is not thrown the stitch will not look good in either S or Z just lay in a line and look very ordinary. But there is always the unravel effect on the Z twist that has to happen. I'm not going to start an argument about who's right, because Stolman does it the one way and do it another. Lets just say that when it comes down to the equality of Expertise being the same, the one who throws the back stitch will always win as the better Stitcher over the flat sewer.

Now we come to the Braided Thread issue. Braid doesn't care about S or Z twist. I've been using several types in my work for a while now. and the result is quite acceptable. In fact in some cases is better. for example it doesn't get so dirty when sewing long runs, you only require a very short tab through the Needle Eye as it won't strip out when you pull the needle through the work. (when joining the needle to the Thread, 1" is enough).

I have some beautiful Ritza Braid in 6mm, .8mm & 1.0mm. which is round in profile and lays in beautifully front and back like the old Silko used to. I am using this for my Fine sewing where the Best finish is required. 0.6mm White looks exceptional when used at #12 spi on Show Bridles and Head stalls. Also it goes very well through my CB 441 to match up at #10spi. for Show Harness. It is Stabilised, lightly Waxed and Siliconised Polyester. Then there is the MOX Waxed Braid I am using for general work in the same sizes. It works well also but lays flat in the Stitch, which makes the Stitch look coarser.

The only drawback with these Threads is having to use 1 or 2 sizes larger Needle to ease the thread through the Awl hole. Also needing a fraction heavier Awl Blade to cope.

Lasting ability I am yet to find out so as to compare them to Linen? I'll let you know in 40 or so years the results.

Down-side on the Ritza, is harder to thread in the 0.8 and 1.0mm. as it's very hard laid. But persevere and with practice you'll get the hang of it.

Up-side is Neater stitching especially if "you throw the Back Loop"!

Knotting off at the ends is probably best done with an extra back stitch as the thread is a bit slippery, same goes for starting. None of mine has come undone as a result.

Well I'd better get off and let someone else have their say now.

By the way nothing beats a good Waxed End in #15 patent Hemp for Hand Sewing. It's easier to use with finer Needles and Awls.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

I'm facing the same quandary as the original poster. I want Barbour 5 cord linen thread, but I've only found it available in left twist.

Some say twist doesn't matter for hand sewing. A few say it does. I have a theory how both can be right.

Many don't throw in an overhand knot where the threads cross. Stohlman's book doesn't say anything about doing so. They just pass the threads past each other. For them, I doubt thread twist matters.

Those who do add in an overhand knot throw the thread "up and over" the needle as Jim mentioned previously. However, direction matters. If you are a righty and throw up and over from bottom to top and toward the direction of stitch travel, that is a clockwise motion around the needle as viewed from the left side. If you are a lefty and do the same movement in relation to the work (mirror image), that is a counterclockwise motion.

If you throw "up and over" the other direction, reverse those.

Left (Z) thread unravels when twisted clockwise. So, a right hander making clockwise "up and overs" is unraveling the thread. Or, at least has the potential to. I suspect the tightness of the holes, how waxed the thread is, and how much thread remains to be drawn up when the overhand knot is formed may also be factors.

I'm not sure what thread to buy. I'd have to go up to 6 cord to get right hand twist.

[JDM]

Your are nearly right about the throwing the "back Stitch" If it is not thrown the stitch will not look good in either S or Z just lay in a line and look very ordinary. But there is always the unravel effect on the Z twist that has to happen. I'm not going to start an argument about who's right, because Stolman does it the one way and do it another. Lets just say that when it comes down to the equality of Expertise being the same, the one who throws the back stitch will always win as the better Stitcher over the flat sewer.

I agree about the overhand knot or whatever it may be more properly called. I'm new to sewing and wasn't sure whether to make the knots as I establish a sewing technique. Hell, it took me long enough to even figure out some are even using them. After a little experimentation, I found my stitches look nicer and more consistent with the knots. I get an even, down to up thread pattern on the face side (\\\\) with the corresponding opposite on the back (////). Plus, the knot should help hold the stitching in place better if a thread breaks -- at least in theory.

FWIW, I've been stitching as shown here: http://www.britishbl...-with-2-needles (I had to click on the "show" tabs above each picture to load them.) She seems to be using Z twist (left hand) thread.

I am not convinced that twist direction makes much, if any, practical difference in hand sewing for most makers of small items, though I see how it can. However, I have very little experience yet with this stuff, so for now I'll defer to the few who say right twist is best for a right hander. I'd rather err on the side of caution. Good linen thread isn't cheap, and one spool (about 1000 yards in 5 cord) will last me many years, perhaps even the rest of my life.

Whether thread twist becomes an issue due to the direction the knots are thrown or from building a twist gradually even without them due to the general mechanical-like repetitive consistency desired when hand stitching one awl hole at a time, I gather that twist can be an issue when sewing "old school" -- one awl poke at a time. Since I want to learn to sew that way, thread twist is a consideration to me.

For fellow newbies wondering how to determine a thread's twist by sight: Look at the thread held vertically. If the spirals go in the / direction, which resembles the middle of a Z, the thread is Z twist (left). If in the \ direction, as the middle part of an S, it is S (right).

Now we come to the Braided Thread issue. Braid doesn't care about S or Z twist. I've been using several types in my work for a while now. and the result is quite acceptable. In fact in some cases is better. for example it doesn't get so dirty when sewing long runs, you only require a very short tab through the Needle Eye as it won't strip out when you pull the needle through the work. (when joining the needle to the Thread, 1" is enough).

I have some beautiful Ritza Braid in 6mm, .8mm & 1.0mm. which is round in profile and lays in beautifully front and back like the old Silko used to. I am using this for my Fine sewing where the Best finish is required. 0.6mm White looks exceptional when used at #12 spi on Show Bridles and Head stalls. Also it goes very well through my CB 441 to match up at #10spi. for Show Harness. It is Stabilised, lightly Waxed and Siliconised Polyester. Then there is the MOX Waxed Braid I am using for general work in the same sizes. It works well also but lays flat in the Stitch, which makes the Stitch look coarser.

How much tab/tail do you leave behind the needle when using linen thread? When attaching the needle, which part of the thread do you stab it through? Some poke the needle hrough the tail or loose end, others go through the working end.

I did a quick search on these brands of braided thread and didn't find any place selling them in the U.S. One (Ritza?) is made in plain waxed and waxed with silicone added. For hand sewing, is the silicone counterproductive (too slippery)? Do you apply hand wax (beeswax/rosin) to help "sticky" it up?

The only drawback with these Threads is having to use 1 or 2 sizes larger Needle to ease the thread through the Awl hole. Also needing a fraction heavier Awl Blade to cope.

I gather that the ends can't be scraped down to taper. Why not?

Lasting ability I am yet to find out so as to compare them to Linen? I'll let you know in 40 or so years the results.

You mentioned in a previous post having bad experience with early polyester thread, as well as some examples of the longevity of properly waxed linen (http://leatherworker...indpost&p=97256). I'm not a traditionalist, but I am somewhat hesitant to embrace new products and methods that don't have a track record. Newer is often, but not necessarily, better. Aluminum wiring in the 1970's. Ugh. Different types of plastics used for water piping in recent decades instead of copper, some of which have failed badly. Various newer drugs causing injuries and deaths. And on and on.

For hand sewing, I'm leaning strongly in favor of good quality linen. Sort of like going with copper water pipe instead of plastic. Not the cheapest , and likely not the ultimate solution, but time tested, proven and solid.

By the way nothing beats a good Waxed End in #15 patent Hemp for Hand Sewing. It's easier to use with finer Needles and Awls.

Still being damp behind the ears to all of this, I don't know what you mean by "waxed end." Can you elaborate?

I found Barbour 5 cord right hand thread in natural color (U.S. made) on ebay and bought a spool today. $56ish. The box shown indicates a "soft" finish vs. the "polished" sold at campbell-bosworth. I have been told that "soft" will better accept wax than "polished.". The seller has one left in case anyone else is interested.

Jay