Singer 201

[idaholeather]

Have a chance to buy a singer 201 fully serviced for 100 dollars. Im wondering if this will work for sewing leather holsters ect. arthtitus in my hands kills when I handstich.

[Art]

No, it will not, it is a garment machine, give it to the wife for quilting.

Art

Have a chance to buy a singer 201 fully serviced for 100 dollars. Im wondering if this will work for sewing leather holsters ect. arthtitus in my hands kills when I handstich.

[idaholeather]

No, it will not, it is a garment machine, give it to the wife for quilting.

Art

what would you suggest as a starter machine?

[Wizcrafts]

what would you suggest as a starter machine?

A Consew, Juki, Singer, Cobra, Cowboy, National, Neels, or Artisan large M bobbin, compound feed, walking foot, heavy tension spring machine, with a SewPro 500GR servo variable speed-reducer motor, on an industrial table and K-legs, capable of stitching 3/8" leather with up to #207 thread on top and #138 in the bobbin, using a Schmetz 135x16 #23 leatherpoint needle.

[idaholeather]

what model of singer would be good What Im looking for is something that will sew 8-9 oz leather holsters ect. for a couple of hundred dollars cant justify spending a thousand dollars on a machine as it as just a hobby right now

Edited December 18, 2009 by idaholeather

[Wizcrafts]

what model of singer would be good What Im looking for is something that will sew 8-9 oz leather holsters ect. for a couple of hundred dollars cant justify spending a thousand dollars on a machine as it as just a hobby right now

A Singer 111w155 walking foot machine will sew 3/8". It was the last one of the 111 series and about the best. It has no reverse lever though, so you will have to spin the work around to backstitch, or tie the last stitches together underneath and burn the knot with a lighter or soldering iron tip.

A 111w155 can be found for a couple hundred dollars in most places that have upholstery shops. Look for one with a 1/2 hp motor.

You will probably need to buy a smaller pulley for the motor if you do buy a used 111. The standard setup for upholstery is for high speed sewing that is useless on belt leather. It will run away from you and overheat the needle, burning the thread.

If you can find a used Consew walking foot machine you are better off.

[Art]

There are literally 100s of posts on this very subject on this forum. I recommend to all newbies to get a new machine on the first trip, as these are equipped for leather sewing. Or the next best thing is to buy a used LEATHER sewing machine, one that was setup right in the first place. The second time you may go to the used market where you will know what you are doing and not end up with something that requires extensive mods to make it usable for your application, or you will have the knowledge to make those mods yourself.

Art

what would you suggest as a starter machine?

[Wizcrafts]

What Art is referring to as a leather sewing machine is a good point for newbies to stitching. A leather sewing machine is either a modified version of a standard machine, or a specially designed new model, which has a speed reduction motor system, a heavy hand wheel, beefed up moving parts and usually a large bobbin. The stress that carving or belt leather puts on a sewing machine will quickly wear out lesser machines. Home sewing machines cannot stand up to regular leather sewing on anything like a holster or thick belt. They may be able to sew such projects, but not with heavy thread and big needles and not for very long before they go out of wack.

Such items as the take-up lever, the tension springs, thread guides, feed dogs, shuttle and oiling system are more critical for sewing thick material that has a lot of resistance. Those parts need to be replaced with custom made parts that are stronger, to handle the thicker thread and higher tensions needed to sew thread sizes up to #207 into vegtan leather that is 3/8" thick.

The motors on real leather sewing machines are geared way down for slower speed with higher torque. This gives the operator better control over the speed as controlled by the foot pedal that connects to a clutch or servo motor. Clutch motors must be "feathered" by lightly engaging the clutch to sew slowly, a feat in itself, while servo motors are easier to control with foot pedal position (but are more expensive).

You need a lot of penetrating power to push a number 23 needle through 3 layers of 8 oz vegtan holster leather. A 2" pulley on a 1/2 horsepower clutch motor, or a gear reduction servo motor is a must for slow speed piercing power. The faster you sew into hard leather the more heat you generate on the needle. I have seen smoke come from a needle when sewing a belt at about 10 stitches per second (a leather machine usually sews half that speed or less). A hot needle can melt nylon thread or fray polyester. It can scar the top of the leather as it makes the holes. If it gets red hot it will lose its temper and warp or deflect until it hits the shuttle, or bottom plate.

As leather stitchers tend to use large needles, the holes in the bottom cover plate and feed dogs must be larger than on garment machines. Walking foot machines have elongated slots in the feed dog, allowing the needle to move forward and backward as it penetrates the material and feeds it the set stitch length. The adjustable pressure spring for the pressor feet is much heavier on a leather sewing machine that a garment machine. Walking foot machines have two springs, for the inner and outer feet.

If you buy a decent leather machine from a reputable dealer you will get plenty of tips and assistance when you need it. If you buy on eBay or a private sale, you will be on your own to figure out how to adjust the machine.

Some very good machines are available through dealers who are members of this forum. Neel's Saddlery, Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines and Cobra are members of our forum and have some of the best machines, anywhere, for sewing leather.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Wizcrafts

[particle]

You know - there is some very good information in this thread, as well as many other threads on this forum. We really need a sticky with information such as this, because it is a very common question with very expensive answers.

[Wizcrafts]

Have a chance to buy a singer 201 fully serviced for 100 dollars. Im wondering if this will work for sewing leather holsters ect. arthtitus in my hands kills when I handstich.

I meant to reply to this regarding the machine you were considering, but got carried away with the why-nots. I have a Singer 15-91, which is almost identical to a 201, in that they both use the same, built-in motor and gearing system. The only real difference I can see is the placement of the take-up and tensioning parts and thread guides. Since my 15-91 is virtually the same machine I can give you some insight into what it can and cannot sew. Here are some things I have learned about the capabilities of these machines.

• The maximum thickness under the pressor foot is no greater than 5/16", with the tension engaged. The foot can be lifted higher to remove or position the work, but it will not stitch reliably beyond that thickness.
• The machines use home sewing needles, which are usually limited to a maximum size of #18. I did find and buy some #20 needles for the 15-91, but they are rare.
• The thickest thread it can deal with is #69 bonded nylon. I had to reduce the bobbin tension way down to get the knots up into two layers of 8-9 oz belt leather, without over-tightening the top tension disk.
• Over-tightening the top tension disks causes the poor machine to bog down as it tries to pull up the thread.
• This stresses out the take-up arm, to the point I was concerned it might warp or break off.
• The little motor that is built into the body bogs down when trying to penetrate two layers of carving leather. I had to hand wheel a few stitches to get the motor to kick in and take over.
• The motor gets hot as it is forced to sew into leather. It finally smoked and I had to replace it, costing me 50 bucks for a rebuilt motor.
• It took a lot of time and some heavy screwdrivers and lots of hand pressure to disassemble the machine's read end to replace the motor.
• These machines are very old and have old wiring that tends to break when you dink with it. I have to rewire the power block on the back after replacing the motor.
• I had to screw the pressor foot tension spring all the way down to keep the leather from lifting up, when the needle came back up to form stitches. If the leather raised up with the foot, there were skipped stitches.
• The Singer 15- and 201- machines only use feed dogs to advance the material. With the pressor foot tightened all the way down it causes drag on the top layer of leather, or whatever material in being sewn. This drag causes alignment errors between layers and the stitches will vary in length.
• There is only 7" of clearance between the needle and the bottom of the body (on a 15-91). This makes it difficult to rotate thick leather as it is sewn around turns and shapes reaching that size. A pancake holster may well have a side that is over 7 inches long.
• There is about 2" additional clearance that tapers above the inside base. If you can fold the material up into that area you will be able to sew wider projects. If it is too heavy to fold up you will be limited to 7" inside the needlebar.

Here is a photo of a Singer 15-91, which is similar to a 201 model:

With these limitations in mind you should be able to make a more educated decision about what type of sewing machine to look for. Call Bob Kovar at Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines (Toledo, Ohio), at 866-362-7397, and ask what he has in the warehouse that will fit your needs. I am sure he has used machines that will get you going, at a price that a member of the human race can afford.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Wizcrafts

[idaholeather]

Thanks wizcrafts for a great answer to my question I think I might still buy the 201 for doing lighter stuff but am leaning really hard towards theTippman boss now after doing a little more research.

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks wizcrafts for a great answer to my question I think I might still buy the 201 for doing lighter stuff but am leaning really hard towards theTippman boss now after doing a little more research.

Did you not say something about arthritis in your hands or arms? Are you sure you want a hand operated sewing machine? Then again, they are ok for short runs, but how will you turn the holsters around to sew the different sides in a Tippman Boss? It only has a 6.5" throat.

[idaholeather]

Well the arthritus is mainly in my fingers so pulling a handle would not affect that. But the throat would be a bit of a problem I guess if I was going to make a really wide holster. Although I dont really care for pancake holsters myself after being a concealed carry license holder for years inside the pants holster carried on the strong arm side front hip is way more comfortable and easier to draw in my opinion. But I guess I might look at the cowboy or the cobras since they would allow me to do more variety.

[Wizcrafts]

You won't go wrong if you get either of those machines, or a Neel's machine. They all do serious sewing! And, the support is unequaled in the industry. When you are investing a couple of grand into a machine you definitely should be looking for follow-up support and advice. Bob, Steve and Ryan O'Neel all give that kind of support.

Regarding that 201 you are thinking of buying, watch it run before plunking down the long-wheelbase ten. If smoke comes out of the wires or motor, head for the hills!

[Denster]

Actually the Boss is the greatest thing since good candy for holsters. Having a left and right foot and a little thought on planning your stitch runs and you are good to go. The narrow throat is only a problem, although not an insurmountable one, when sewing together the front and backs for mexican loop cowboy holsters. For that I use a powered machine but still close them on the Boss. It's good to have one of each type but if I could have only one it would be the Boss.

[Jimbob]

Well the arthritus is mainly in my fingers so pulling a handle would not affect that. But the throat would be a bit of a problem I guess if I was going to make a really wide holster. Although I dont really care for pancake holsters myself after being a concealed carry license holder for years inside the pants holster carried on the strong arm side front hip is way more comfortable and easier to draw in my opinion. But I guess I might look at the cowboy or the cobras since they would allow me to do more variety.

OK, here is my two cents...I am a bloody beginner in sewing machines and had absolutly the same questions....I have now a Singer 99K with 18 needles, it will do nicly some chrom taned chap leather about 2 layers or max three of 2-3 oz....that is pushing it bad....so forget that for holsters....then I bought an Adler 105-64 used in veruy good condition...but not for free...I learned it fast here on this forum)))) nothing is for free...BUT there are good deals somewhere....U need to look and search...I found a guy here locally with very good used deals!!

Stay away from this Tippman stuff, a joke for the money....and lots of bad reports about the support....u need to spend about 500 dollar to 1000 to get a used machine from somebody trustworty....like these guys here on the forum selling machines....again I am a bloody rookie but I know exactly what u going throu...U will be upset, unhappy and ill if u not get the right machine for the right job!!!

This art guy is cool, Bob Kovar is super ( he helped me big time ) there are good folks on here...I can check my guy what he has, give me a ringer, check craig list....check local upholstery and shoe shops...

Greetings from a Rookie

James

[Denster]

OK, here is my two cents...I am a bloody beginner in sewing machines and had absolutly the same questions....I have now a Singer 99K with 18 needles, it will do nicly some chrom taned chap leather about 2 layers or max three of 2-3 oz....that is pushing it bad....so forget that for holsters....then I bought an Adler 105-64 used in veruy good condition...but not for free...I learned it fast here on this forum)))) nothing is for free...BUT there are good deals somewhere....U need to look and search...I found a guy here locally with very good used deals!!

Stay away from this Tippman stuff, a joke for the money....and lots of bad reports about the support....u need to spend about 500 dollar to 1000 to get a used machine from somebody trustworty....like these guys here on the forum selling machines....again I am a bloody rookie but I know exactly what u going throu...U will be upset, unhappy and ill if u not get the right machine for the right job!!!

This art guy is cool, Bob Kovar is super ( he helped me big time ) there are good folks on here...I can check my guy what he has, give me a ringer, check craig list....check local upholstery and shoe shops...

Greetings from a Rookie

James

It might be wise to actually have some experience with a product and service before you decide to trash them. My two Boss machines have sewen over 2000 holsters. They were used when I bought them and they are still going strong. As to Tippmann's service they are aces. The only time I had to contact them was about my aerostitch. Their service tech spent over an hour on the phone explaining the machine to me and they didn't make a dime and invited me to call back if I had any problems. I have a hard time finding fault with that. There isn't anything on either machine that you can't fix yourself if you have any mechanical ability at all.

[Wizcrafts]

It might be wise to actually have some experience with a product and service before you decide to trash them.

And I thought we were all friends here on this forum. My mistake.

[Jimbob]

It might be wise to actually have some experience with a product and service before you decide to trash them. My two Boss machines have sewen over 2000 holsters. They were used when I bought them and they are still going strong. As to Tippmann's service they are aces. The only time I had to contact them was about my aerostitch. Their service tech spent over an hour on the phone explaining the machine to me and they didn't make a dime and invited me to call back if I had any problems. I have a hard time finding fault with that. There isn't anything on either machine that you can't fix yourself if you have any mechanical ability at all.

Hey, no harm done and if u own two of them thingy's that's just fine....my opinion, and that's all that is...is that these "aparatuses"are made simple and very straight forward...need one hand to sew and no motor...?? Well that's OK when u pay little for little...but the price tags these things have can buy a very nice real sewing machine!!!

So if u'r happy that's fine, I like to get my money's worth....

So as I said, just my opinion and comon sense.

Thanks for your view

As an actual owner,

We all have the same destination >>> being a good leather worker >>>but the way we get there may be totally different!!

So let's get back to the bench and make something pretty....ya all hang in there!!!

James

[Denster]

And I thought we were all friends here on this forum. My mistake.

No mistake. We are all friends here.

James

The original posters was looking towards options for sewing heavy veg-tan leather holsters. From my experience the Boss is idealy suited for that, simple to use, and darn near indistructable. Are they over priced at $1,195 (current sale price new)? Probably, but they are the only game in town for this type of stitcher. If the Chinese decide to knock off this design they will probably sell for $650. You can find Boss machines at local aucutions with a little searching and sometimes get them on the cheap. My first one was $75 the second was $700. Tippmann will completely rebuild them with a new factory warranty for about $100. My bone of contention with your statement was not actually having first hand experience with them. I'm not upset or anything like that.

[Wizcrafts]

I had two concerns about the usefulness of the Boss to the OP. One is the limited throat depth which can probably be worked around by folding material up inside the machine (if it will fold up!). The other has to do with arthritis in his hands. Squeezing the pressor foot lift lever and pulling on the action lever could be stressful under these conditions. But, I assumed too much as they are not my hands.

[Denster]

I had two concerns about the usefulness of the Boss to the OP. One is the limited throat depth which can probably be worked around by folding material up inside the machine (if it will fold up!). The other has to do with arthritis in his hands. Squeezing the pressor foot lift lever and pulling on the action lever could be stressful under these conditions. But, I assumed too much as they are not my hands.

Those are thoughtful considerations. I've found that on really large pancake holsters I do have to lift a corner in the throat when doing the weapon outline stitch. That's mostly laziness on my part as I like to make perimeter stitch and weapon outline in a continuous run. If I did them separate I wouldn't have a clearance problem. I have arthritis in both shoulders and both hands. I know I'm really old. Pulling the lever is so effortless that it isn't a problem. The pressor foot lift lever I have to grip high and that gives me a lot more leverage.

[idaholeather]

Well thanks for all the good advice I think ill be calling Bob and checking into the cowboy 4500 see how much the shipping is going to kill me to get it here seems like it should work quite well for what I want to do and be able to handle any future projects as well. And it seems if I go looking to set a used one and have to buy all the parts to get it right Id probally spend close to the same as buying a new machine

Edited December 22, 2009 by idaholeather

[Art]

Check with Steve at Cobra too, they are closer to you and have excellent machines and the best customer service.

1-866-962-9880

Art

Well thanks for all the good advice I think ill be calling Bob and checking into the cowboy 4500 see how much the shipping is going to kill me to get it here seems like it should work quite well for what I want to do and be able to handle any future projects as well. And it seems if I go looking to set a used one and have to buy all the parts to get it right Id probally spend close to the same as buying a new machine

[idaholeather]

Are they about the same quality Art?