Members RWB Posted February 22, 2010 Members Report Posted February 22, 2010 What I was trying to say and I am not sure that it came across right or not is .1) There are alot of very artistic crafts men out there that I feel should probably be charging more for their work, not only is the tooling superb but they truely know how to build a saddle. 2) there are the ones that they have no idea what it takes to make a saddle, not something that looks like a saddle,but a true working piece of gear. These are the ones I feel are getting paid more than what their work deserves. All the power to them. I also understand what you are saying in regards to over head etc., but keep in mind there are the ones that have alot less in these expences. Geographic area, buying power can all reflect on the final numbers. I was not trying to start a war, this is my opionon, which you may find totally of base & that would be you choice. But for the most part people getwhat they are worth & if they are not worth it they don't last. I'm not trying to start war either. Please don't misunderstand. I just was wanting to know what you meant, and with your clarification I now understand. Opinions are great. That's what makes the world go 'round. I guess I just fall into the camp that says there is no way you can make a custom saddle for less than $2,500 and still make a profit. And that's what it's all about. If I can't make money doing this well then it's a great hobby, but I would be better off working at the coal mine or for the railroad. Even at $2,500 you are not making enough to make a living doing this. So the only way to do it is get faster and use cheaper materials. The faster you go the less picky you have to be. I'm picky, and I can't bring myself to give that up. So no war just curious. Ross Quote Ross Brunk www.nrcowboygear.com
Members colttrainer Posted February 22, 2010 Members Report Posted February 22, 2010 I'm not trying to start war either. Please don't misunderstand. I just was wanting to know what you meant, and with your clarification I now understand. Opinions are great. That's what makes the world go 'round. I guess I just fall into the camp that says there is no way you can make a custom saddle for less than $2,500 and still make a profit. And that's what it's all about. If I can't make money doing this well then it's a great hobby, but I would be better off working at the coal mine or for the railroad. Even at $2,500 you are not making enough to make a living doing this. So the only way to do it is get faster and use cheaper materials. The faster you go the less picky you have to be. I'm picky, and I can't bring myself to give that up. So no war just curious. Ross Ross I never said it would be a pretty saddle, I just said it could be done & it would last. NOT SURE WHAT IT WOULD LOOK LIKE! You have a good day AL Quote Lloyd Allan custom Leather (Al) Find us at facebook.com/LloydAllanCustomLeather Everyone welcome
Members Newfman Posted February 23, 2010 Members Report Posted February 23, 2010 Weazer, I got your note. Actually, I wasn't looking to make you a saddle. My base saddles start at $2,650,and with the amount of work that goes into one, I can't afford to drop that price, however, what I had in mind is that I have 2 saddles here, one I am going to sell, which one depends on which has a buyer first. The one is fresh off the bench and was going to be for a woman that had put a down payment on it and was buying it to surprise her husband. during the build process he surprised her with divorce papers! Needless to say, she isn't going to buy this saddle now, but; I am discounting it by the amount of her deposit so it is for sale @ $3,500. The other is a used cutting saddle I made for myself, and does not have much use, too busy working to pay the bills to ride lately ao it hasn't been getting much use. The saddle is one that had a price tag of $3,500 on it new, but; I will sell it for $2,000. These may be in your price range and are both completely hand made. If that interests you just let me know and we can talk further. I am attaching a couple of pics of them. Bondo Bob I want the horse. Quote With enough leather and rope, you could probably make your horse cut a deck of cards. . .but you'll never make him deal 'em with a smile on his face!
Members Newfman Posted February 23, 2010 Members Report Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) I think the people at Yugo Motors were all good car builders. They just used the cheapest components they could find. Toyota makes a nice little entry level car, but did not use the cheapest components. Even Mercedes makes an entry level car, but uses high end components. All the people that weld, screw, bolt, clip, stick, glue, snap and all the other trades that go into assembling a car, pretty much have their craft down. The biggest difference was the quality of the parts. Yugo was really cheap, and you would have a hard time finding one, even in a museum. The others, well, are still on the road. Granted, some of the people here are making Ferraris and Bugattis. Those would be the top quality parts, top quality design and assembly, and extrordinary tooling. They have Bugatti customers as well. For a "working" saddle, I just don't see how Saddle Makers like Keith Seidel, Kent Frecker, and a slew of other fine saddle makers could build a saddle on a $90 tree, with fine imported hardware and leather from China, and have it live a long hard life at the hands of a working cowboy and not just fall apart. Skill alone just isn't going to do it. I haven't built a saddle, but i can recognize quality, and getting better at it every day. Norm Abrams and Tom Silva could build a pretty house out of crap materials. One might look at it and say, "Wow, what a beautiful house!" and I bet Tom and Norm would just turn and walk away muttering. . ."It's Crap." So, in a way, you get what you pay for. If you are ignorant enough to buy a $950 brand new "Hand Made" saddle and the builder sells you on all of the advantages of a ralide tree, well, 'caveat emptor'. If you buy a hand made saddle for $2500 and you were told that it was all top quality materials but found out later that it had a ralide tree in it....I can think of ways I would prefer to deal with that. The price does not make, the saddle. The components + Skill + knowledge + reputation= a saddle of high value. There are saddles available everywhere in the spectrum of quality and value. Pick your poison. Edited February 23, 2010 by Newfman Quote With enough leather and rope, you could probably make your horse cut a deck of cards. . .but you'll never make him deal 'em with a smile on his face!
Members BondoBobCustomSaddles Posted February 23, 2010 Members Report Posted February 23, 2010 I want the horse. Newfman, thanks but; "Duke" and I have been together for close to 13 years and he ain't going anywhere without me any time soon. Bob Quote
Members Newfman Posted February 23, 2010 Members Report Posted February 23, 2010 That's too bad. He looks like he has some good bone and nice broad chest. Most of them around here have had all the good stuff bred out. Little pony feet and fine bones, ugh, what a mess. But Duke, man what a nice butt! I don't blame you, I wouldn't let him go either. Looks as kind and big hearted as can be as well. Oops, I'm hijacking the thread. Sorry folks. Carry on. Quote With enough leather and rope, you could probably make your horse cut a deck of cards. . .but you'll never make him deal 'em with a smile on his face!
Members Shelly Posted March 4, 2010 Members Report Posted March 4, 2010 Just had to throw my 2 cents in here - My base price is $3300 - this gets you a rough out or slick out saddle, ready to ride. I am in total agreement with the analogy made about the different carmakers - same thing probably applies here. I think you can think of Keith's work, as well as the saddlemakers that are in the Traditional Cowboy Arts Assn, and the makers in that league, as the Ferrari's of our world, in that, while you can purchase an entry level product from each one, if money isn't an object, you can just about get anything you want done to it, within reason. (I know from personal experience that some requests are just not going to be done, for various reasons, just because you could 'afford' it, doesn't mean you should do it!)... Anyway, I think most of the people that are wanting to buy a high end, custom saddle, for a Walmart price, don't put a lot of consideration into the whys of the pricing they see. When I consider that I now have at least $900 invested in a quality tree, leather, hardware, etc, and then have to consider the overhead for the shop, machinery costs/maintenance (part of the overhead), figuring in a salary, etc, and the fact that none of us want to be in business without at least a small glimmer of hope for making a profit in business, I'm a little disturbed by the comment I read about 'let's show these guys that a saddle can be made for $1500.00', etc - you get what you pay for in most cases. If anything is made by hand, with a high level of competency, why is it so hard for anyone to figure out that you aren't buying something that is being 'mass produced'? It also behooves the buyer to invest some time to learn about the differences in the quality of the work they are buying. I know of one exceptional saddlemaker that is no longer in the business, because he could not make a living, and became bitter about trying to justify his level of competency to a public that could not and would not understand the difference. He used to say that the years he spent learning the trade would have been better spent doing something else, because he feels he wasted those years, even tho it was on something he totally enjoyed doing, for himself, the horses his saddles were ridden with, and the people that knew the difference. Incidentally, his base price was $4000 when he left the business... This said, I think, one reason I am still in this business is because of the area I am in, the fact that my clientelle seeks me out because they feel I do a quality job for what they pay, and they feel that I know and understand what they need - they are in the performance horse industry, and are comfortable that I know what they want in regards to form to function - I understand the terminology, training aspects, etc. I am always trying to do better for my customers, as well as for myself, and I think I will always be learning, refining, and trying to get not only to do right by the horse, but also my customer and myself. Anyway, time to get off the soapbox, and back to work.... Quote Shelly
Members kseidel Posted March 4, 2010 Members Report Posted March 4, 2010 I'm a little disturbed by the comment I read about 'let's show these guys that a saddle can be made for $1500.00', I too have been disturbed by these kinds of statements. I could also build a saddle for these low prices, but I choose not to as I hold my training and experience in higher regard. I would have to work for so little per hour that I would be unable to maintain a living. I believe a makers prices should not only reflect his quality of workmanship, and his years of experience and advanced training up to that point, but should also be compenserate to a quality lifestyle. It concerns me when I see well made hand-built saddles selling for discount prices because it reflects negatively on our entire industry. It is one thing to work with leather as a hobby and not make wages or profit, but professionals have to compete for business at those discounted prices. I would encourage anyone doing leather work for sale to price their goods at a competetive price. By that I mean that it should be high enough to compare to professional work of similar quality and experience. Not under priced to under-sell the competitor. I know of one exceptional saddlemaker that is no longer in the business, because he could not make a living, and became bitter about trying to justify his level of competency to a public that could not and would not understand the difference. He used to say that the years he spent learning the trade would have been better spent doing something else, because he feels he wasted those years, even tho it was on something he totally enjoyed doing, for himself, the horses his saddles were ridden with, and the people that knew the difference. Incidentally, his base price was $4000 when he left the business... It is because of this inequitable competetion that many talented saddlemakers are leaving the business. It is also why younger people are not entering the field and developing advanced skills. There are not the rewards for advanced skills and training in the saddle business that there are in other industries. In fact, it is a pretty poorly paying occupation. If it continues on this course, I believe it is destined to be done only by hobby leatherworkers. A person gets a PhD in his field to get a higher salary. It should be also in the saddle business. I am in need of experienced, qualified leatherworkers to work in my shop. I am able to pay the best wages in our industry, and even at that, there are none available. No one wants to train this long and work this hard for $15-$20 per hour. Who can blame them.... Well I guess I took over Shelly's soap box! Maybe I am preaching to the choir here, but I do not want to see this way of life disappear. Respectfully, Keith Seidel Quote Keith Seidel Seidel's Saddlery www.seidelsaddlery.com
Members Newfman Posted March 4, 2010 Members Report Posted March 4, 2010 (edited) So, when do I start? Ah, I must have overlooked the experienced part. I know when i was building a small traditional timberframe barn for my horses, my neighbor who is a commercial builder, scoffed at the amount of work. He said he could stick build it faster and for less money. Granted, he can rough measure and nail gun a big shed together in no time, but that is all that it is. His would last for 20 years on the long estimate, mine is hand made, with traditional joinery, pinned together with oak pegs. If a good roof is kept on it, it will last for a couple hundred. yeah, I was feeling a bit insulted. There is a lot of pride in craftsmanship. Can't see selling it short. Edited March 4, 2010 by Newfman Quote With enough leather and rope, you could probably make your horse cut a deck of cards. . .but you'll never make him deal 'em with a smile on his face!
Members Shelly Posted March 4, 2010 Members Report Posted March 4, 2010 (edited) Thanks, Keith!! You are so much more eloquent on the soap box than I am! One other thing I think I wanted to say here - there are plenty of 'Factory' saddles being made that are actually made on an assembly line, no one person is making them (one person laying out, cutting out parts, hand fitting, tooling, stamping, etc) - and they all have 'Custom Made', 'Hand Made', etc, giving the customer buying these cheaper factory saddles the impression that these are high quality, custom saddles...not the case! (I've visited shops such as these, and predicted exactly what we'd see, before we ever got inside - one was just what I'm talking about, and the customer was having the 3rd remake of this saddle done for her mare - I went with her and the mare the 3rd time, and she was floored by it - one person, possibly two, could speak fluent English) I've found that a few common things to look for when looking at these lesser priced saddles is: sheepskin will not be 'real', but that woven, fake stuff, (lets face it - a real good, 1" thick vegtan woolskin is expensive, so this is one of the first places to cut cost), and they will sometimes use a cardboard type of stiffener for the skirts, in place of skirting leather...then, edges are usually dyed to hide the fact that no time is spent at all on sanding, edging, and rubbing the edges to a glossy finish - something I and any good saddlemaker worth a flip will do, regardless if we dye the edge or not! Then, take a look at the cantle binder - did they put in great big pop stitches? Well, that is another area that screams 'factory'...see how long it takes to stitch no more than 6 stitches per inch, no pop stitches, and get the stitches to come out on the underside of the cantle in a nice even spacing - these are just a few of the things that add up in time, talent, etc - yet another corner cutting feature is really long machine stitches on the skirts, etc - it should be pretty much the same thruout - mine are 6 stitches per inch - all saddles, regardless of it being a base price job or a fancier one...I did try to increase the stitching to 7 or 8 once, and I found it to be a little dicey, in that the thicker the leather used, the needle and awl on the machine can cause it to 'zipper', so there is a point that it doesn't make sense to go to...my point is, when I have a customer that asks me what makes my saddles worth the base price, I point out these most obvious things, and then can show them some things that aren't so obvious - the things in the designing of the saddle that are sometimes based on traditional elements, and some that are driven by 'style' in the current show ring, in the disciplines that the rider shows in...beautiful lines on a saddle, whether in the design element, or the tooling, etc, will encourage your eye to flow around the saddle...one reason I am not a fan of the oak leaf in it's traditional sense here in Texas, is that it's a 'crash pattern', no real flow to it, as in other floral patterns. And, just so I don't get someone upset here - not all great saddlemakers are wonderful at carving - but they have a great eye for design, flow, etc, and do an exceptional job building a saddle of really great quality! I would rather see an exceptional set stamp saddle, or a plain one, (which is really hard by the way, to do 'cleanly'), than one with really terrible carving/tooling....(seen my share of them too)... Maybe a few of the other guys here, Keith included, could also chime in here with a few other points to make when trying to see the differences?? Seems to me that many of the people here that need to learn a little more about what constitutes a high quality of work when it comes to hand made saddles might appreciate a bigger 'laundry list' than what I've listed... And, so no one thinks I'm a 'miss know-it-all' - I think we must strive to learn something new, ongoing, all the time, to refine, improve, etc. I give it up to those guys that do such beautiful work on their saddles, etc, and can also do a fine job making their own engraved silver! I braid, and with all of the other things I do in my life, even tho silver work is intriguing, it's probably not something I'm going to put on my plate in the near future....but, someday??!! Guess what? Most large companies or corporations pay for their employees to do recurrent training, renew licenses, etc, etc, as well as nice benefit packages, in lots of cases. We have to also figure in our health care, any 'paid vacation' time, etc...sure does make my base price sound like it's still not enough...probably isn't! Edited March 4, 2010 by Shelly Quote Shelly
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