Product Design

[UKRay]

This topic has taken some interesting twists and turns.

Design theft is a thorny issue (any intellectual property theft is a serious business) but with a craft as old as leatherworking can anything truly be said to be original? I know my work springs from countless encounters with other artisan's and artist's work but most of the time I couldn't name them - and here on the forum we often don't know their real names anyway. It would be very hard, if not impossible, to acknowledge the debt.

A good point was made about Al Stohlman's work: "Al made REALLY good money, for a long time, carving someone else's leather for discussion more than for practical use". I can't help but agree, but it goes much further than that. What Al Stohlman did was facilitate a whole lot of learning and discussion. He designed projects that taught good design/project construction in a way that is still practical and effective. He was a brilliant teacher of leatherwork but his projects should not be seen as an end in themselves. IMHO they are simply a beginning and in some respects, (when followed rigidly without any personal input) I feel they have the ability to inhibit design rather than encourage it.

Josh, please don't misunderstand me. If everyone was like you fellah, I'd parcel up all my patterns and send them to every forum member (want 'em or not!). I've even been known to request the odd pattern myself if I felt I could learn from it and been very grateful if the originator chose to share. My gripe is with those who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes designing even small items - hey, we have had people asking for a wristband pattern (a strap?) and one guy even wanted a design for a basic key fob a while back. IMHO that is simply laziness and taking advantage of people's good nature - I could be wrong of course...

Given the tight financial constraints many of us face, would it be a good idea if there was an 'unwritten' value placed on pattern sharing? By this, I don't mean that everyone starts charging for sharing, more that people expect to pay for what they get. If a pattern is shared for nothing and the sharer is happy with that then great, but at a minimum the sharer's shipping costs should be covered. Most folk use PayPal these days - how much effort would it be to make a token $5 payment for the use of a really nice small pattern? What about the help you could give someone who is unemployed but a great pattern designer if you paid them $30 for the use of a well designed purse pattern? How much difference would your $30 payment make to a family who are struggling?

Just my thoughts, guys, and, as ever, worth precisely what you paid for them.

Ray

[8thsinner]

I hear what your saying about other forum members there UKRAY.

Personally I have been busy cleaning up and doing more of my own designs. I have over two hundred products in the list and upto a dozen variations on some. So I have been pretty busy.

But the way I go about it is to look through a sceptical eye around me. I look at something walking down the street, say a shirt cut that I may or may not like, then I analyse why I like it, what it's good for, how it works, why it works, what other way it can work etc.

My medium is a notebook that I never go anywhere without, ever. And a Caran dache auto pencil. These are my most important tools, the pencil has never failed, it's easy to carry lead in my wallet, and I make and use my own notebooks. So I can show people who well they hold up after years of heavy abuse.

After I list the principles of application, weigh the pros and cons of differences in the little things like buttons versus snaps etc.

After this I go about drawing up variations in paper adjusting lines as I go. I have my own kinda short hand imaging system where thread, snaps, buttons, lace, edge lace etc all have their own key. It makes sense to me but not a lot of other people.

Once it's drawn out the way I want it takes a little longer to work up an actual pattern, and my note books often have finished ideas for years before they meet paper, much like my Hunting backpack thats been ready to fabric test for over a year now, but I have vowed to get this done by year end. I have kept putting it off for the shear magnitude of complexity that took three years to clean up. Least in theory.

Inspiration

I find my inspiration for little details all over the place.

I will walk through pound shops, craft shops,second hand shops, tools shops, art shops etc. Just trying to take in the way other people put things together, how buckles are attached, new types of buttons or just generally the way certain problems have been overcome. Doesn't matter what the product is, could be an oven plate or a luggage scale.

I don't do this to steal ideas, I do it so I am better rounded more knowledgable person in my choosen professional career.

If a new tool for example is on the market that does two jobs where I would normally use two tools, it obviously speaks more to me, but not just in it's apparant practical application but also in how someone else took a common order of production and created a tool to do both jobs one after the other.

It's the same way I look at the rest of life. I am an absolute B*****D to buy gifts for for this reason, and (my partner is sitting here shouting YES, DEFINATELY and poking at me) I will nit pick and tear the ideas of others apart reguardless of intent or sincerity of offering. Some might consider that a flaw in my character and I have insulted people before by actually being honest..But it is me, it's the way I think, and thats why I believe I am a good designer.

Saying that, the majority of my stuff is designed for practical purposes, when it comes to pure novelty or decorative items I am not that way minded simply put.

It's something I am working on.

[JLSleather]

This topic has taken some interesting twists and turns.

Design theft is a thorny issue

Stohlman ... facilitate a whole lot of learning and discussion. ... but his projects should not be seen as an end in themselves. .

What about the help you could give someone who is unemployed but a great pattern designer if you paid them $30 for the use of a well designed purse pattern? How much difference would your $30 payment make to a family who are struggling?

Ray

At the risk of dragging this out, I wanted to give Ray an "attaboy", an "Amen" if you prefer. That in mind, here's my short [ish] take.

We all have some patterns. If it's YOURS, you can do what you like with it -- sell it, lease it, share it freely, throw it away. Suit yourself. If it's Al's, or Tandy's, or Walmart's, you can use it because you purchased the right to use it - for your own use, not for resale, and there are legal issues that could be raised from "disbursing" it, which - worst case - could involve you, the recipient, the LW site, and so on ... DON'T get me started on using pirated software to alter a few lines on someone's design ...

One last word about A.S. I learned MUCH from his instruction. Personally, I still prefer his series on leather cases. This is because Al went beyond the "here's a craftaid" or "cut the leather 7 x 7 1/4", to "here's how to make stuff to suit what you need". Wonderful.

And a pattern IS worth something. If it weren't, then why do we charge more for the "special order"? For ME, if I'm charging the customer for an "original" design, then I certainly can't complain about giving that fee to the designer if someone else came up with it. I would actually PREFER to know that my money helped someone who really needs it (as opposed to paying for the new paint striping in the leathercraft mall).

That said, in the end I can only speak for myself. I know more about leatherwork than copyright and patent law, and I prefer it that way. In the future, I may need and ask for a pattern. In that event, he who has the pattern is welcome to "shoot me a price" with no thought of offending me, and we'll take it from there.

[rdb]

This is a tough question. Starting off in leatherwork, very few have the artistic gift. Most will start with a tandy pattern, or try and copy something they may have seen somewhere. After a few articles are made, and the tools gotten used to, a person's imagination may lead them to coming up with their own pattern. A lot of times, I'll bet, a person can't quite figure out how someone else made something, and use their own method to assemble it. This can lead to an amateur look, but maybe even a brand new twist on something...

I really believe that a craftsman develops their own patterns over a whole series of "mistakes", or "not quite rights". Whether it's in my head, developed on a computer, cut out from posterboard, or straight into the leather cutting, the first thing made from an idea, can always be improved.

That's my biggest problem. I am never satisfied with a completed project.

Take for example, a simple zippo case. I've made at least a 1/2 dozen styles/types, and seen at least another dozen kinds from others. If one particular one sells for you, then you will probably stick with that as a pattern. In my case, I can't stop fiddling around with a new style. I would probably share the pattern to one I have made previously, but never the latest one.

I worked really hard developing a solo bag pattern that fits a soft tail, and some custom rigids, just right. I googled, of course, before I made the first one, and did not see a similar one. After I made and sold some, I did come across a similar one. The bike shape itself requires a certain fit, so the personal style I put to, it is the real difference, not so much the shape. Someone pm'd me for that pattern. They didn't get it. For anyone with a limited skill in leatherwork, though, they would be able to copy it from a picture (and I've already seen that happen). Someone with better skills than me, would make it better and improve on it, no doubt. At that point i believe it becomes theirs.

Copies are theft. Little changes are theft. Big Improvements to someone's patterns are something new. I believe that is the standard for copyright law, too. It's not just a simple change to someone's work. It's that, it is such an improvement, it becomes something new.

Certain things never change in their basics. A roper saddle is by definition a certain structure. It's purpose defines it. A saddler's approach to making it is the difference. The skill in its construction, brings out the oohs and ahhs.

A possibly simple example might be...Fold a single piece of leather over itself, stitch it, and you have a bic lighter case. Cut that same piece of leather into the shape of a boot, and you have a retail tandy type pattern. Shape that same piece of leather into, let's say, a motorcycle, or a windmill for that matter, and you have your own pattern. The keycase is still a keycase, but how many windmill keycases have you seen?

-just another snow day rambling.

-dave

[King's X]

Interesting RDB.......the law is a funky thing.

[jbird]

This topic has taken some interesting twists and turns.

Design Josh, please don't misunderstand me. If everyone was like you fellah, I'd parcel up all my patterns and send them to every forum member (want 'em or not!). I've even been known to request the odd pattern myself if I felt I could learn from it and been very grateful if the originator chose to share. My gripe is with those who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes designing even small items - hey, we have had people asking for a wristband pattern (a strap?) and one guy even wanted a design for a basic key fob a while back. IMHO that is simply laziness and taking advantage of people's good nature - I could be wrong of course...[/color]

Given the tight financial constraints many of us face, would it be a good idea if there was an 'unwritten' value placed on pattern sharing? By this, I don't mean that everyone starts charging for sharing, more that people expect to pay for what they get. If a pattern is shared for nothing and the sharer is happy with that then great, but at a minimum the sharer's shipping costs should be covered. Most folk use PayPal these days - how much effort would it be to make a token $5 payment for the use of a really nice small pattern? What about the help you could give someone who is unemployed but a great pattern designer if you paid them $30 for the use of a well designed purse pattern? How much difference would your $30 payment make to a family who are struggling?

Just my thoughts, guys, and, as ever, worth precisely what you paid for them.

Ray

Ray

I got you, none of my comments were headed your way sorry if it sound like they were.

I know that some folks in-fact a lot of them are honest good hearted people that i would love to share with

for instance I made an Elk skin shawl and I got a lot of response and folks wanted me to post it which I am will real soon got no issue with it, I drew it up and worked out the kinks and they folks asking were all good folks.I could not agree more that there are those that have no knowledge of design leather work or any other items that are connected there with, and yet there so darn lazy that they wont even try to make a design think about why it is what it is or how. and then they try to sale it, its crap from start to finish badly built badly finished crap! So that gives us a bad name a bad taste in peoples mouth. I will tell you I was not any good when I started i was very bad and I still have a lot to learn, but I was willing to study and learn and I never sold anything I couldn't say hay I am proud of that. and I have spent many hundreds of hours with out sleep and food pouring over books and thinking why and where and I have made a pretty good biz and I think I have the respect of my fellow leather artisans and friends here.So in recap if its just for you yes I will be happy to share and give help, if its for you to sell and make money you better by able to do it right or at least try thats all I ask put a little effort in to it. For my part I will never rest until I reach the top and that I don't think has ever been done, you can always get better.

Thank you all please don't take this the wrong way and if I stepped on you shout at me

Josh

[King's X]

JBird: "I love you man!"

[jbird]

JBird: "I love you man!"

Thanks Kings X,Right Back at you.

you know I am fan of your skills and good nature

Josh

[UKRay]

I really believe that a craftsman develops their own patterns over a whole series of "mistakes", or "not quite rights".

Copies are theft. Little changes are theft. Big Improvements to someone's patterns are something new. I believe that is the standard for copyright law, too. It's not just a simple change to someone's work. It's that, it is such an improvement, it becomes something new.

Whilst I agree entirely with what you say about the 'mistake school of learning', Dave, and I agree in principle with your observations about 'copyright law', it is hard to be 'cut and dried' with something as fundamentally practical as good leatherwork design.

We have all made a very small but significant change to an existing design and suddenly the design works properly. To the casual or uninformed observer, the design is identical but maybe a buckle is shifted by an inch so a strap becomes fully adjustable or perhaps the handle is moved to where the bag balances properly (think about something like a cue case which is long and thin and where good balance is essential).

When this happens I may have created a very similar item to everyone else, almost identical in fact, but mine works properly. Have I in effect, created something new? Is that a contravention of 'copyright law', in other words is it a simple change or is it a significant change?

I don't need answers to these hypothetical questions but it does make life more interesting thinking through the possible ramifications.

I'd be interested to know where people think we should draw lines...

Ray

[King's X]

Live within your means, artistical skills and remember to thanks those who have loaned you a hand as you progressed up your artistical ladder. In order words don't forget those you have passed up as you build on your skills and you will be able to sleep at night. There will always be those who will make every attempt to ruin what others have. And, there will always those who will not share what they have learned or know with anyone! For whatever reason, it is their choice. We must accept it even though we may not understand it.

JBird: I admire your choice to move into your skill full time. Your truly a cowboy at heart; rough, but always smooth! Glad to call you a friend.

I'm done, but thanks for allowing me to chime in.