New Wade Saddle Got Me Bucked Off All Weekend

[Sage]

Good Morning,

Lots of great minds and experience working with you!

As stated by Dr. Johnson and JW, pictures can be deceiving.

But I would bet a Fancy cup of coffee from those pictures that you have posted-- Rigging may also be contributing to your issues.

Post 32---- pictures tell me that the saddle rigging is not square from near side to off side.

If you take that plus the lump you have mentioned I can see why your horse is reacting that way on a incline.

Hope you can get things worked out. Sage

[Huntet02]

Huntet,

Interesting shape to that dry spot. In post #29 it looks to have a pretty straight line on the top of it. Most dry spots fade out more gradually. In trying to interpret what you've written, it sounds like the different piece makes a ridge too. Anytime there is assymmetry like that it can affect all sorts of things - pulling the saddle crooked on the horse etc. Who knows what they are feeling under there if it is twisted a bit? So whatever is different needs to be fixed for sure. That is a defect in the saddle.

We agree with Bruce that the saddle appears to be too far forward in a bunch of those pictures. Are any of the pictures with the saddle taken after your ride before you moved the saddle? Which ones? ok this pic is afer she was rode. Been working so hard at night haven't graciously replied to all things...

Sorry it doesn't show more uploading these pics tues night one at a time took more patience than I have in a week...lol

Here's another in my old saddle....how is this fit? is the saddle in correct place? No back cinch here since this yrling likes to chew it wont' wear one when ponying her.

Most bars are made so they fit right at the back edge of the shoulder blade, but in trying to see though the saddle to the horse it looks like the saddle is set up on top the shoulder blades in most of the photos. You say the bars aren't touching under the "swell rise". I am not sure what you are meaning there. Could you explain better?

Edited April 8, 2010 by Huntet02

[Huntet02]

Good Morning,

Lots of great minds and experience working with you!

As stated by Dr. Johnson and JW, pictures can be deceiving.

But I would bet a Fancy cup of coffee from those pictures that you have posted-- Rigging may also be contributing to your issues. Interesting so does this mean this rigging isn't going to work for my horse' build?

Post 32---- pictures tell me that the saddle rigging is not square from near side to off side.

If you take that plus the lump you have mentioned I can see why your horse is reacting that way on a incline.

Hope you can get things worked out. Sage

Everyone ~ wanted to sincerely thank all of you for your generous tips, suggestions and valuable time in trying to help me. You are a generous group of folks and I sincerely appreciate your help and expertise. Huntet

Edited April 8, 2010 by Huntet02

[Sage]

Everyone ~ wanted to sincerely thank all of you for your generous tips, suggestions and valuable time in trying to help me. You are a generous group of folks and I sincerely appreciate your help and expertise. Huntet

If your Rigging is truly Not square, your saddle will not work on any horse until corrected and made square.

Having a saddles rigging set square is a must!!! Sage

[kseidel]

Post 32---- pictures tell me that the saddle rigging is not square from near side to off side.

If you take that plus the lump you have mentioned I can see why your horse is reacting that way on a incline.

Sage,

While I fully agree with you that a rigging out of square will render the saddle unfit to ride, I fail to see any definitive evidence of this based on the pics in the post #32. There haven't been any pics that one can compare rigging placement from side to side effectively. You are correct that this may be a problem, but more critical inspection is required.

Respectfully,

Keith

[Denise]

Keith, Can you explain how you would check to see if rigging is symmetrical?

[kseidel]

Huntet32,

Well you have gotten a lot of people thinking about your situation! I was busy yesterday and returned this AM to 24 additional posts! Took me a while to catch up. Everyone is correct in placement of your saddle being too far forward. Cinch position does not dictate proper tree position in any way. The opposite is true in that when the tree sits where it is made to fit, the rigging position affects where the cinch is intended to hang by the saddlemaker. Having the cinch anywhere on the sternum is effective and acceptable. Your last pics indicate the saddle is still a bit far forward. The 3/4 +/- is better suited for horses with steeper shoulders, allowing a tree to sit farther forward without the cinch rubbing the elbow. Your horse is built for a 7/8ths to full rigging position, but the 3/4 will work just fine. You just need to be comfortable with the cinch placement farther back than you are used to.

Your horses' back is not hard to fit, despite what your trainer / friends may be telling you. In fact it is a fairly common and desirable back conformation.

The rear rigging is set quite far back on this particular saddle. When the saddle is in the proper position on your horse, the flank cinch may be too far back and into the flank area. If not too tight and the horse used to a rear cinch, that should not be the cause of her bucking.

The "lump" that you feel under the sheepskin on the right front corner is possibly caused from the saddle string not being set correctly, as well as the other possibilities mentioned. If it is the saddle string, it seems high enough and does not stick out far enough from the pics to cause a horse to buck. In any case, it is a manufacturers defect that they should be held responsible for, including shipping both ways.

So, the fact that your horse bucks with your new saddle still remains unsolved. We have eliminated a number of factors, but more possibilities still exist. You did not find any painful pressure points on her back, indicating that she is not over-reacting to pinching in the withers, or digging of the rear bar tips in her kidneys. We need to consider that there may be too much rock in the bars. Many horses exhibit poor behavior to too much pressure in the center of the back. (bucking is not the classic reaction, but possible. Head and neck reactions are indicators.) You stated that your pad had slipped prior to the bucking fit... had it slipped back far enough to allow the front of the saddle to be off of the pad and in direct contact with the horse? This would allow the front of the tree to sit lower than the rest and create additional pressure in the center.

Also, in trying to re-create the incident, what was the saddles original position? Was it set far forward over the shoulder blades as shown in some of your pics? If so, did it slide back several inches? This might have caused the cinch to bind and become uncomfortably tight. It also would pull the tree bars tight into the shoulder blades.

The amount of rock and twist and angle of tree bars, and the square of the rigging, and how much the tree moves on the horse, are difficult things to assess in pictures. But they are critical to the horses' comfort and performance. It is unfortunate that you do not have a qualified saddler in your area. That would simplify this process. If you keep supplying us with information, we may eventually get the problem solved.

Keith

[Traveller]

I once bought an older saddle that had lumps under where the strings were attached and my local saddle repair guy smoothed them off for me. Fortunately, he discovered them before I put the saddle on the horse, or the horse might have told me about them himself!

I don't know if that's the source of your problems but I do know that the underside of the saddle should be totally smooth.

After that, these guys know WAY more than I do!

Good luck,

Joanne

[Sage]

Mr. Seidel,

You are absolutely correct---the saddle being discussed needs to be physically inpected by a professional.

As I stated-- pictures can be deceiving. I would like to lose the bet for Huntets sake. (The more questions Huntet can ask the better chance of resolve.)

P.S

Mr. Seidel, I have enjoyed reading some of your posts and have applied some of those suggestions with success in producing a better looking saddle. Thankyou! Sage

[kseidel]

Keith, Can you explain how you would check to see if rigging is symmetrical?

It is difficult to determine the symmetry of a rigging even when it is being constructed, let alone after it is finished, without some pre- designed equipment. The rigging must be square to the horse and how the bars sit on the horse. Ideally one would set the saddle on a stand that has a center line determined to be centered through the tree's position, and then be able to square off of that center line. It can also be checked with a plumb bob and a specific point on the horn. This method is plagued with many potential errors mostly due to operator variable.

Many saddlemakers measure from points on the horn, bars, cantle, and swell, to check symmetry from one side to the other. The problem with this is that even the best trees are seldom perfect. If the horn or cantle or swell is slightly out of center or twisted from side to side, this throws off those calculations. Also thickness of rawhide can make one bar longer than the other. I have found these methods to be highly variable and unsatisfactory for consistent rigging symmetry. If you measure off of the skirts, they have to be exactly the same and again we are measuring from usually the tip of the bar which can be different from side to side.

The riggings need to be within 1/4" of the same position. More than 1/4" will cause the saddle to move and walk on the horses back. Most of the riggings that I have found to be out of square are 3/4" or more. The result is usually moving blankets and a sore horses' back. Bucking is not usually associated with riggings our of square.

Hope this helps answer this question.

Keith

[Denise]

Thanks Keith. I know good saddle makers go to a lot of trouble to get the rigging in straight. It can be hard for a saddle buyer to know for sure but it is good for people to have some idea how to check it out.

[AndyKnight]

I will be the saddle maker that says something different maybe.. re Dry spot.. If the saddle was too far ahead which it sure looks like to me, the dry spot may more likely be due to no pressure.

The whole horse was not sweated and it did not appear caused by pressure to me. Of course pics only convey limited info.

.

I would look at how tight you cinched the horse. as well as looking at the horses" softness" or ability to give to the pressure / cues of the rider over all. Your horse was speaking and some of it may have been the saddle but definitely not all.

respectably.

Andy Knight

Edited April 12, 2010 by AndyKnight

[Huntet02]

I will be the saddle maker that says something different maybe.. re Dry spot.. If the saddle was too far ahead which it sure looks like to me, the dry spot may more likely be due to no pressure.

The whole horse was not sweated and it did not appear caused by pressure to me. Of course pics only convey limited info.

.

I would look at how tight you cinched the horse. What does this mean you think the cinch was was too lose or to tight? This sweat pattern was NOT the day she bucked she performed nicely the day of these pictures. as well as looking at the horses" softness" or ability to give to the pressure / cues of the rider over all. A trainer plus myself rode her I will give you that I might not be giving her perfect cues but ......

Your horse was speaking and some of it may have been the saddle but definitely not all.

respectably.

Andy Knight

[kseidel]

I will be the saddle maker that says something different maybe.. re Dry spot.. If the saddle was too far ahead which it sure looks like to me, the dry spot may more likely be due to no pressure.

The whole horse was not sweated and it did not appear caused by pressure to me. Of course pics only convey limited info.

.

I would look at how tight you cinched the horse. as well as looking at the horses" softness" or ability to give to the pressure / cues of the rider over all. Your horse was speaking and some of it may have been the saddle but definitely not all.

respectably.

Andy Knight

Good Morning Andy,

Respectfully I reply to your post.... Dry spots under the saddle are not caused by the absence of pressure. Only pressure points or the inability to sweat will result in a dry spot. Sometimes the skin suffers enough damage to cause the sweat glands to not sweat properly or at all. If the horse sweats properly, then a dry spot will be caused from a pressure point. If it is a large dry spot, it is caused by a smaller pressure point compounded by movement causing the pressure to be spread over a larger area. You cannot have a pressure point the size of the entire front bar pad. Even a saddle with excessive bridging will fully sweat under the saddle. Only the air flow space thru the gullet may remain dry, and that not after riding for very long.

Keith

[AndyKnight]

Good Morning Andy,

Respectfully I reply to your post.... Dry spots under the saddle are not caused by the absence of pressure. Only pressure points or the inability to sweat will result in a dry spot. Sometimes the skin suffers enough damage to cause the sweat glands to not sweat properly or at all. If the horse sweats properly, then a dry spot will be caused from a pressure point. If it is a large dry spot, it is caused by a smaller pressure point compounded by movement causing the pressure to be spread over a larger area. You cannot have a pressure point the size of the entire front bar pad. Even a saddle with excessive bridging will fully sweat under the saddle. Only the air flow space thru the gullet may remain dry, and that not after riding for very long.

Keith

, You have a better way with words than I do.. I agree however the areas that are contacted by even pressure will often sweat quicker than the areas that have less contact or pressure . If you get the horse warm enough the areas with less contact( but still suffient) will also be wet. When looking for even sweats I want to see the horse wet beyond the blankets. What I am saying is make sure the horse is sweated up well before reading too much into sweat patterns. I see too often riders worrying about dry areas when the horse hasn't been sufficiently warmed up.

Edited April 12, 2010 by AndyKnight

[kseidel]

Keith

, You have a better way with words than I do.. I agree however the areas that are contacted by even pressure will often sweat quicker than the areas that have less contact or pressure . If you get the horse warm enough the areas with less contact( but still suffient) will also be wet. When looking for even sweats I want to see the horse wet beyond the blankets. What I am saying is make sure the horse is sweated up well before reading too much into sweat patterns. I see too often riders worrying about dry areas when the horse hasn't been sufficiently warmed up.

Andy,

I'm sure I am no more eloquent than any other of us, just misunderstood more maybe and therefore careful not to put my foot im my mouth unless I mean to.

You are correct that when warmed up sufficiently a horse will sweat more evenly throughout the areas of varying pressure. Many riders, even experienced, put much too much emphasis on dry spots that may not cause any problems at all. A great percentage of horses do not sweat evenly over their whole back, rendering dry spots an unreliable tool in diagnosis. I am only concerned about the small pressure points that cause pain. Sometimes when ridden longer, these become less visible from the sweat migrating into these spots. Once I have determined that a horse is sweating normally, then when fitting a tree, I want to see the the earliest sweat pattern. That tells me where the pressure is and where there is none, without the "filling in" of the sweat into the medium pressure areas. I usually try to get the horse warmed up in a round pen or long line before saddling and then ride only 15 minutes or so, then strip the saddle to see where the horse and tree make initial contact.

I also feel it important to test the fit in difficult terrain. Many times a saddle fits acceptably in an arena, but sores a horse badly in the mountains. Our current subject may be dealing with some if this with her current situation. The mountains can be a most unforgiving proving ground! Here, for example, trees with too much rock leave dry spots in the center that almost never show in an arena. If ridden too long, they usually sweat through, even though the horse is exhibiting discomfort.

Just more information to complicate the field of saddlemaking even further!

I mean no disrespect, and appreciate your point of view and the input of your experience.

Have a good day my friend!

Keith

[Huntet02]

Andy,

I'm sure I am no more eloquent than any other of us, just misunderstood more maybe and therefore careful not to put my foot im my mouth unless I mean to.

You are correct that when warmed up sufficiently a horse will sweat more evenly throughout the areas of varying pressure. Many riders, even experienced, put much too much emphasis on dry spots that may not cause any problems at all. A great percentage of horses do not sweat evenly over their whole back, rendering dry spots an unreliable tool in diagnosis. I am only concerned about the small pressure points that cause pain. Sometimes when ridden longer, these become less visible from the sweat migrating into these spots. Once I have determined that a horse is sweating normally, then when fitting a tree, I want to see the the earliest sweat pattern. That tells me where the pressure is and where there is none, without the "filling in" of the sweat into the medium pressure areas. I usually try to get the horse warmed up in a round pen or long line before saddling and then ride only 15 minutes or so, then strip the saddle to see where the horse and tree make initial contact.

I also feel it important to test the fit in difficult terrain. AN "AMEN BROTHER" coming from Huntet02 on this one!!!! Many times a saddle fits acceptably in an arena, but sores a horse badly in the mountains. Our current subject may be dealing with some if this with her current situation. The mountains can be a most unforgiving proving ground! Here, for example, trees with too much rock leave dry spots in the center that almost never show in an arena. If ridden too long, they usually sweat through, even though the horse is exhibiting discomfort.

Just more information to complicate the field of saddlemaking even further!

I mean no disrespect, and appreciate your point of view and the input of your experience.

Have a good day my friend!

Keith

[Huntet02]

New pictures after a ride with different trainer;

This trainer thought I will need shims so she had me contact <about the horse.> This trainer also thought the saddle in the other pics was placed too far forward. She didnt like the slipping blanket on pic #021 and her not being quite straight but I thought you all could understand ....

But here's the best news of all...my husband just bought a new truck tonight (we've been trailering with a 93 GMC that 2nd gear was almost completely gone in trainee replaced more than 6 times in this trucks lifetime) Anyway so maybe NOW I can get my horse/saddle to my local saddle maker and go above 55MPH..........Hallelujah!!!!!

[AndyKnight]

You could rotate your stirrup leathers so that the buckle is lower, hopefully below the rigging. It will eliminate some of the bulk that they would be causing as they are in the pics.

[Traveller]

How would you do that, Andy? I see what you mean about the buckle being high enough to cause some bulk, but I'm not sure what you mean by rotating the leathers to fix it. Would you pull them through so that the buckle would sit lower? I guess it's the rotating part that's got me a bit confused. Thanks!

[AndyKnight]

How would you do that, Andy? I see what you mean about the buckle being high enough to cause some bulk, but I'm not sure what you mean by rotating the leathers to fix it. Would you pull them through so that the buckle would sit lower? I guess it's the rotating part that's got me a bit confused. Thanks!

You got it. When a stirrup leather is "set" any adjustment made to the length should be done by pulling them over the bar at the top one way or the other. rather than by taking the hobble strap off and adjusting where it goes around the stirrup.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Huntet,

I have put two of your pictures below - the uncinched one where most of us liked the placement and where you had it last night. The saddle looks pretty close in position. Your latigo is angled forward a bit as we noted it would be. So, how did the ride go with the saddle in that position? How did your horse react? What kind of sweat pattern did you get? I would suggest, now that you have a reliable vehicle, that you get the saddle checked out by a competant saddle maker to discover the cause of the assymetry before doing anything else. Shims can cause more problems than they fix in a lot of cases.

[Sage]

Good Morning,

What has been suggested about having a saddle maker go over your saddle is sound advice!

Hauntet---I have been reading your post's, and excuse me if I have missed something. But it sounds like you know your horse and have

had her for a while. You bought a new saddle and rode this this horse and saddle combination at least 4 times and things were good.

Then you took this same combination on a trail ride and the horse was acting up maybe from the start and things just became worse as

the day went on. Then got the horse home and have been riding with trainers with this same combinations with ok results?

If I may--- Let me tell you a experience I had not to long ago. Had a older gelding that was born on the ranch, he and I had been around

each other for more than 20 years. After that many years you tend to get to know each other fairly well.

Saddled up one morning to go check some fence, he was acting up just little, figured we could work it out and thought we had done just that.

Things had been going just fine---- then I found myself floating about 3 feet above horse and saddle, hit the ground. After the stars went away

I was asking myself--- what the H_LL happend! My horse was just standing there, took my rig off and really looked over things. All looked good.

Saddle up again, and for the rest of that day it was a challenging time just to get back to the barn.

Next day that horse and me and same rig went out to do the same thing, it was a great day of riding!

Sometimes your just going to have a bad day with a critter and thats all there is to that!

Sorry for being a wind bag! Keep us posted. Sage

[Huntet02]

Here's the pics of her sweat that night, this was with shims placed underneath her topline on each side placed about 4 inches underneath the saddle. SHe did great for about 20 mintues regular slow warm up riding then I noticed she started dropping her head way way low the same as she did as if to escape pain....it was subtle the trainer didn't see it but I pointed it out. Its not a dropping of her head in relax mode, its a dropping almost to the dirt and back up trying to get away from something...

Edited April 14, 2010 by Huntet02

[kseidel]

Here's the pics of her sweat that night, this was with shims placed underneath her topline on each side placed about 4 inches underneath the saddle. SHe did great for about 20 mintues regular slow warm up riding then I noticed she started dropping her head way way low the same as she did as if to escape pain....it was subtle the trainer didn't see it but I pointed it out. Its not a dropping of her head in relax mode, its a dropping almost to the dirt and back up trying to get away from something...

This is a good example of what I explained earlier..... Dry spots are caused by pressure points, not by the absence of pressure. Adding shims simply increased the pressure increasing the size and intensity of the existing pressure point. Also resulting in negative performance from the horse.

Keith