Acrylic Paint Over Clear-Lac

[rawhide1]

I was wondering if acrylic paint would bond to clear-lac. The reason I ask is it seems no matter how much I buff a piece I've dyed black the clear-lac will pull some of the black dye onto my paint. Which aint good. So if I clear-lac the piece first and then paint and then clear-lac the whole piece will the paint bond to the clear-lac.

Thanks, Mike

[retiredff]

I know this is an old thread but I would also like to know if acrylic paint will bond to Clear-Lac. If I then apply another coat after using acrylic paint will the Clear-Lac smear or ?? the paint?

Thanks

[Colt W Knight]

Solvent based lacquer is a porous finish. Lacquer is an evaporative finish, meaning it does not cure chemically, the solvents merely evaporate over time. Because of this, lacquer takes a long time to dry, and the evaporating solvents leave micro pores in the finish. This is why old furniture would get moisture rings when you set drinks on the table top without a coaster. The moisture seeped/absorbs into the pores.

Evaporative finishes like lacquer typically do not have recoat windows because the solvents from the fresh lacquer allow the fresh coat to melt/meld into the previous coats. Modern polyurethane finishes(like on cars) actually cure chemically after a short amount of time. If you don't recoat within that drying period, you have to scuff the surface to increase the surface area and provide tooth for the next coat to hold onto.

This is what happens when you mix two types of finishes. The two finishes do not bond chemically, they simply stick to the previous substrate like glue-mechanical bond. If there isn't enough surface area for the previous coat to adhere to, they will wear off.

The clear lac is most likely a solvent based lacquer, and the paint is most likely a water based acrylic.

Can WB acrylic adhere to leather coated with a leather lacquer finish? Maybe, test it and see. Too many variables to say yes or no 100% of the time. In my experience, the leather is porous enough to allow the acrylic to stick without out much problem.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Colt W Knight

[retiredff]

Thanks for the detailed reply Colt.

I applied some clear-lac to a test piece a few minutes ago, I will apply some paint after it dries.

Thanks again

Tony

[Colt W Knight]

Thanks for the detailed reply Colt.

I applied some clear-lac to a test piece a few minutes ago, I will apply some paint after it dries.

Thanks again

Tony

No problem. I spent a lot of time researching paint/finishes when I started building guitars. Finishes are complicated, and modern finishes even more so because they are mixtures of finish types. 60-70 Years ago, lacquer was Nitrocellulose based, and around the 60s, lacquer became Acrylic based. Then the automotive industry came out with Urethanes and polyesters. Then of course there are shellacs, enamels, water based products, and oil based products.

[retiredff]

colt - the acrylic stuck just fine to the clear-lac, BUT when I applied clear-lac over the paint... what a mess!

can u suggest finish to use over the paint?

THX

Tony

[Colt W Knight]

What happened?

[retiredff]

I brushed on the clear-lac over the acrylic paint, the CL dissolved the paint and it smeared. Good thing this was just a test!

Tony

[hornm]

Basically whatever the thinner in the Clear-Lac is, is like paint thinner. I've got both Clear-Lac and Wyoshene (same thing technically). The "obnoxious" smell that they produce is like a Xylene or Toluene(sp?) type thinner. Basically you applied something that is going to "melt" the thin coat of acrylic paint that you put on.

If you can spray the Clear-Lac over your paint job that might work since it wouldn't be rubbing across the paint causing the disolved portion to "travel". I couldn't say though as I pretty much stay away from the acrylics paints because of the terrible job I do with them

Horn

[retiredff]

Horn - I have a airbrush that I want to experiment with, I'll try that, or I may look for something else besides clear-lac as a resist that will work with the acrylic paint.

Thanks

Tony

[Bob Blea]

Tony, another member on here (Spinner) who makes motorcycle gear had a post about this same issue.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=42390&hl=%2Bmatte+%2Bmedium#entry264052

He recommended using Acrylic Matte Medium to cover the acrylic paints before applying a finish to protect the paint.

[Colt W Knight]

Yeah, brushing will probably never work. You will want to spray it on, and with the specific caveat:

1. GIve the acrylic paint plenty of time to dry

2. Mist on the first few coats (ample dry time)

but the best thing to do is find some finishes that are more compatible, but I doubt you will ever find any brush on products that will produce acceptable results.

[retiredff]

Tony, another member on here (Spinner) who makes motorcycle gear had a post about this same issue.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=42390&hl=%2Bmatte+%2Bmedium#entry264052

He recommended using Acrylic Matte Medium to cover the acrylic paints before applying a finish to protect the paint.

Thanks Bob, I found some on Amazon.

Tony

[Colt W Knight]

Thanks Bob, I found some on Amazon.

Tony

You can buy that stuff at Michaels and most craft stores as well.

[retiredff]

Colt - I know but I live over an hour away from the nearest Michaels, and my computer is much easier. The UPS, FedX and my mailman are on a first name basis!

[NVLeatherWorx]

Or you can just get a can of the spray on Saddle-Lac (it is pretty much the same thing as Clear-Lac) and you should be fine. However, when using acrylic paints you should follow the same application process as you would with a regular colored dye when doing your detail: apply it straight to the leather, let is set for at least 24 hours, then you can apply your Clear-Lac over the top of it without much, if any, issue. Acrylic paints work just like the dyes and liquid stains; if you apply them OVER the top of a finish you don't get as much penetration into the leather as when you allow it full access to the pore structure of the grain. If it is an element of detail that needs to "shine through" then you apply your resist (that would be your lacquer or acrylic top sealer), allow it to properly set/dry, then apply your final main (base) color. However, if your base color is a dye or liquid stain then you need to detail brush it around the areas to remain colored so that you don't cover over the detail.

There are plenty of informational/instructional books on this subject and they literally cover every possible method of achieving the final results that you are looking for. It is too bad that is isn't taught like it used to be, it was so much more educational back then.

[retiredff]

I could also use my airbrush to apply the clear-lac and SLC sells and product made by angelus for acrylic paints. I have ordered a product that Bob Blea found mentioned in a thread he was nice enough to do a search for. Hopefully I have some options to experiment with.

Thanks for all of the replys

Tony