Heavy Stitcher

[MadTailor]

Hi everyone. I need some feedback on heavy stitcher. I have Tippman Boss and it does work fine and all but have been thinking of something more automated and to do similar job. I do not like the fact that the arm is so short, and I have one hand to hold the pieces. It is not a 100% "walking foot" (bottom has no feed dogs). Have seen many use Artisan 3000/4000. Is that the same deal but with motor? I'm using it for heavy bags and such and I'm looking for strong consistent stitch that I can place close to the edge and not have many marks on the bottom. Any expert help will be great. I'm new in the heavy leather deal, but very familiar with any machine for fabric and garment leather (have 5 of them). Here is a bag I did with the Boss, and I have the feeling there is an easer stitcher than that to do the job even better:

[esantoro]

Beautiful bag. Get the 4000R with slotted, feeddogless needleplates, center groover, and a rt. side presser foot. You will not be sorry.

Ed

[Myriam]

Sorry I can't help with the sewing machine, but I just have to comment on the bag itself. The tooling is so exquisite! Awesome job!

[kseidel]

you might check out a hook and awl machine like a campbell or randall. They are strictly leather machines designed for saddlery and harness work. You can get many attachments, different feet and bottom plates. No feed dogs, awl feed.

[Ian]

very nice looking bag - did you use a 2 piece mold to get those perfect corners?. The tooling is awesome too.

[YRsaddles]

Have artisan 4000 for sale for 2,500 ono if anyone is intersted. 3 years old but only used 20-30 hours. Immaculate condition kept inside house. Comes with 500 of attachments. Downsizing, and bought it for my wife to help out with stitching she doesn't use it.

Attachments are

Feedog , plate, screw,

Center foot

Left foot

Right foot

holster plate

blanket feet full set

Swing out roller guide

Also with polyester thread 5 spools from ferdco, 3 off white, 2 peasant

[Art]

Hi Mad,

There are a few choices for heavy stitchers but I will try to narrow it down a bit. There are new and used, but I will try to keep it to fairly recent vintage and or completely remanufactured units.

Criteria:

Heavy Machine Castings

No belts in drive system except to drive head flywheel

Capable of easily stitching 3/4" of Sole Bend

Readily Available Parts

Needle system is readily available from supply vendors

Accessory parts are available to handle most sewing configurations

Needle feed (or Awl), Walking foot or Jump foot

Drop feed (if important to the application, e.g. blankets, webbing)

Cylinder bed or Post bed

Adjustable Stitch Length withing range of 4-8spi

Thread sizes 207 (Tex-210, Metric 13) to 346 (Tex-350, Metric 8) and 415 (Tex-400, Metric 7)

9" minimum throat size

Juki 441 and clones

Around in Juki form since the late '70s but available since the mid '90s in clone format from Taiwan and Mainland China. A very reputable machine that in stock format isn't the greatest machine for leather, but with a few modifications to needle plates, presser feet, and feed dogs, and addition of a thread lube pot, turns into one of the primo heavy leather sewing systems.

Highlead GA2688-1/Artisan Toro-4000P

This is a 441 clone on steroids. Machine casting is much heavier and things are a little beefier, but sewing parts are 441 (which is plenty heavy in it's own right). A 16 1/2 inch throat and high head gives a lot of clearance for most anything. I have both Highlead and the Artisan machines. They come from the Huigong No. 3 factory in Shanghai and are in my opinion, very good machines from an ISO 9001 factory. The Highlead machines come from the factory set up to sew heavy fabric or webbing and run a little over 800spm with a 3/4hp clutch motor. Not exactly your daddies leather stitcher but just what I need for padding contracts I have. Small animals, children, and sane individuals run from the area when I am using it, but you easily get used to it and wish at times it were faster. The Huigong machine as marketed by Artisan as the Toro-4000P is a completely different machine personality-wise. Different feet and needle plates more in tune with leatherwork eliminate most top and bottom marking and the motor drive system with a speed reducer and servo motor will sew a flat out rate of about 180spm and a crawl so slow it can be measured in minutes per stitch if desired. The torque available from the speed reducer really precludes the need for a 3/4hp motor and the 1/2hp provided is more than adequate. The pedestal stand from Artisan, with heavy duty casters makes it easy to move the machine, but it remains very stable platform while sewing.

Artisan Toro-4000R/Cowboy CB 441/Ferdco Pro 2000/SewMo 441/and Others

When the patents ran on the Juki TSC-441, it wasn't long till they got in line to start knocking it off. Ferdco actually used the Juki 441 as the base for their machine until the patents ran and the Taiwan quality got to the point where they were satisfied with it. Today, all these machines are pretty good. Some are made in Taiwan and some are made in Mainland China, I can't tell which is which. In all, I have used the Artisan, Ferdco, and SewMo and found them very good, I don't think any of them will be better than the Ferdco Juki Pro 2000 (original), but they don't seem to be much worse.

Artisan Toro-3000/Ferdco Pro 2020/and Others

Take the popular 441 and take 7 inches out of the middle and lose the integral bobbin winder and replace with an external one (off of drive belt), so now you have a 441 clone with a 9 inch throat. These are little brothers to the 441s above. Most are supplied with all three feeds, Needle, Walking foot, and Drop. Changing to non-drop is a matter of taking out the feed dog and strapping on a slotted needle plate.

Adler 205-370/Cowboy CB 205-370/SewMo 205-370/probably Others

The Adlers and their clones are excellent leather machines and sew really well, but extremely thick stuff is not their best suit. Feet and needle plate variety is not as great as the 441s. They also don't "feel" like they have as much room as the 441s. This is really a German thing, if they make them smaller, they'll go faster and in production these machines scream. If I had a factory, I'd want Adlers or Pfaffs in it. Run like hell, run forever, made of unobtanium.

Campbell-Bosworth/Union Lockstitch/Other Needle and Awl

These are really great machines, most from yesteryear, but work well in the production environment. I use mine and have it setup to sew linen on holsters and belts. Campbell will machine you whatever part you need to do whatever sewing operation you need, but this is not the machine for the newbie or the faint of heart, especially the Union. Not a big machine in the throat area, but there are few things I have problems with.

That's it in a nutshell.

Art

Hi everyone. I need some feedback on heavy stitcher. I have Tippman Boss and it does work fine and all but have been thinking of something more automated and to do similar job. I do not like the fact that the arm is so short, and I have one hand to hold the pieces. It is not a 100% "walking foot" (bottom has no feed dogs). Have seen many use Artisan 3000/4000. Is that the same deal but with motor? I'm using it for heavy bags and such and I'm looking for strong consistent stitch that I can place close to the edge and not have many marks on the bottom. Any expert help will be great. I'm new in the heavy leather deal, but very familiar with any machine for fabric and garment leather (have 5 of them). Here is a bag I did with the Boss, and I have the feeling there is an easer stitcher than that to do the job even better:

[MadTailor]

[quate]....................

That's it in a nutshell.

Art

Thanks a lot. It looks like a good homework to me.

[MadTailor]

You still in the top of my list. Let me just get an over all idea of this machinery and will get to you. What will the difference between Toro 4000 , 4000R and 4000P will be?

Milen

Have artisan 4000 for sale for 2,500 ono if anyone is intersted. 3 years old but only used 20-30 hours. Immaculate condition kept inside house. Comes with 500 of attachments. Downsizing, and bought it for my wife to help out with stitching she doesn't use it.

Attachments are

Feedog , plate, screw,

Center foot

Left foot

Right foot

holster plate

blanket feet full set

Swing out roller guide

Also with polyester thread 5 spools from ferdco, 3 off white, 2 peasant

Edited April 16, 2008 by MadTailor

[MadTailor]

Thank you all. I got YRsaddles's Artisan 4000. I do not do lots of items so it looks like a god fit for me.

ART thanks for laying it down for me.

[Art]

Hi Milen,

I think that machine will work great for you, plenty of room for bag work. The right foot/holster plate combo is a good setup for putting gussets into bags, you lose some capacity (thickness) with the holster plate, but you have a bunch of excess with that machine anyway. Leave the feet stock (unmodified) till you see what your use will be. Judicious use of the grinder can go a long way to making life easier in certain applications, but give it some time.

Artisan's are great machines, I put more mileage on mine in a weekend than some folks put in a year/lifetime and they just keep running (800 spm continuous for 32 hours on a weekend, stopping to change bobbins and oil). If you ever have problems, Artisan service is probably the best out there over the phone. Do not hesitate to call Steve if you have a problem, he is great.

Art

Thank you all. I got YRsaddles's Artisan 4000. I do not do lots of items so it looks like a god fit for me.

ART thanks for laying it down for me.

[MadTailor]

Hi Milen,

I think that machine will work great for you, plenty of room for bag work. The right foot/holster plate combo is a good setup for putting gussets into bags, you lose some capacity (thickness) with the holster plate, but you have a bunch of excess with that machine anyway. Leave the feet stock (unmodified) till you see what your use will be. Judicious use of the grinder can go a long way to making life easier in certain applications, but give it some time.

Artisan's are great machines, I put more mileage on mine in a weekend than some folks put in a year/lifetime and they just keep running (800 spm continuous for 32 hours on a weekend, stopping to change bobbins and oil). If you ever have problems, Artisan service is probably the best out there over the phone. Do not hesitate to call Steve if you have a problem, he is great.

Art

Hope so Art. You mentioned changing Oil. .... I guess I'll read the manual first. I'm sure will take some practice to master it, but I'm ready to do the work. Have been in the tailoring trade for over 15 years and any garment machine there is I'm like a race car driver. I'll ask questions soon......

I've seen a video on the web of a dude working on one but did tried to find it again with no luck. Maybe it was not Artisan.....

Thanks Art

[Art]

You just oil the big stitchers, you don't change the oil, there are usually no reservoirs or wicks like in smaller machines.

I think the videos are from Raphael Sewing up in Montreal.

Art

Hope so Art. You mentioned changing Oil. .... I guess I'll read the manual first. I'm sure will take some practice to master it, but I'm ready to do the work. Have been in the tailoring trade for over 15 years and any garment machine there is I'm like a race car driver. I'll ask questions soon......

I've seen a video on the web of a dude working on one but did tried to find it again with no luck. Maybe it was not Artisan.....

Thanks Art

[esantoro]

Hi Art,

How much heavier would you say the 4000p/Highlead is than the 4000R?

Ed

Hi Mad,

There are a few choices for heavy stitchers but I will try to narrow it down a bit. There are new and used, but I will try to keep it to fairly recent vintage and or completely remanufactured units.

Criteria:

Heavy Machine Castings

No belts in drive system except to drive head flywheel

Capable of easily stitching 3/4" of Sole Bend

Readily Available Parts

Needle system is readily available from supply vendors

Accessory parts are available to handle most sewing configurations

Needle feed (or Awl), Walking foot or Jump foot

Drop feed (if important to the application, e.g. blankets, webbing)

Cylinder bed or Post bed

Adjustable Stitch Length withing range of 4-8spi

Thread sizes 207 (Tex-210, Metric 13) to 346 (Tex-350, Metric 8) and 415 (Tex-400, Metric 7)

9" minimum throat size

Juki 441 and clones

Around in Juki form since the late '70s but available since the mid '90s in clone format from Taiwan and Mainland China. A very reputable machine that in stock format isn't the greatest machine for leather, but with a few modifications to needle plates, presser feet, and feed dogs, and addition of a thread lube pot, turns into one of the primo heavy leather sewing systems.

Highlead GA2688-1/Artisan Toro-4000P

This is a 441 clone on steroids. Machine casting is much heavier and things are a little beefier, but sewing parts are 441 (which is plenty heavy in it's own right). A 16 1/2 inch throat and high head gives a lot of clearance for most anything. I have both Highlead and the Artisan machines. They come from the Huigong No. 3 factory in Shanghai and are in my opinion, very good machines from an ISO 9001 factory. The Highlead machines come from the factory set up to sew heavy fabric or webbing and run a little over 800spm with a 3/4hp clutch motor. Not exactly your daddies leather stitcher but just what I need for padding contracts I have. Small animals, children, and sane individuals run from the area when I am using it, but you easily get used to it and wish at times it were faster. The Huigong machine as marketed by Artisan as the Toro-4000P is a completely different machine personality-wise. Different feet and needle plates more in tune with leatherwork eliminate most top and bottom marking and the motor drive system with a speed reducer and servo motor will sew a flat out rate of about 180spm and a crawl so slow it can be measured in minutes per stitch if desired. The torque available from the speed reducer really precludes the need for a 3/4hp motor and the 1/2hp provided is more than adequate. The pedestal stand from Artisan, with heavy duty casters makes it easy to move the machine, but it remains very stable platform while sewing.

Artisan Toro-4000R/Cowboy CB 441/Ferdco Pro 2000/SewMo 441/and Others

When the patents ran on the Juki TSC-441, it wasn't long till they got in line to start knocking it off. Ferdco actually used the Juki 441 as the base for their machine until the patents ran and the Taiwan quality got to the point where they were satisfied with it. Today, all these machines are pretty good. Some are made in Taiwan and some are made in Mainland China, I can't tell which is which. In all, I have used the Artisan, Ferdco, and SewMo and found them very good, I don't think any of them will be better than the Ferdco Juki Pro 2000 (original), but they don't seem to be much worse.

Artisan Toro-3000/Ferdco Pro 2020/and Others

Take the popular 441 and take 7 inches out of the middle and lose the integral bobbin winder and replace with an external one (off of drive belt), so now you have a 441 clone with a 9 inch throat. These are little brothers to the 441s above. Most are supplied with all three feeds, Needle, Walking foot, and Drop. Changing to non-drop is a matter of taking out the feed dog and strapping on a slotted needle plate.

Adler 205-370/Cowboy CB 205-370/SewMo 205-370/probably Others

The Adlers and their clones are excellent leather machines and sew really well, but extremely thick stuff is not their best suit. Feet and needle plate variety is not as great as the 441s. They also don't "feel" like they have as much room as the 441s. This is really a German thing, if they make them smaller, they'll go faster and in production these machines scream. If I had a factory, I'd want Adlers or Pfaffs in it. Run like hell, run forever, made of unobtanium.

Campbell-Bosworth/Union Lockstitch/Other Needle and Awl

These are really great machines, most from yesteryear, but work well in the production environment. I use mine and have it setup to sew linen on holsters and belts. Campbell will machine you whatever part you need to do whatever sewing operation you need, but this is not the machine for the newbie or the faint of heart, especially the Union. Not a big machine in the throat area, but there are few things I have problems with.

That's it in a nutshell.

Art

[Art]

Hi Ed,

About 25 lbs. Gussets, webbing, and bearing blocks seem a little heavier, like the rest of the 441s, it is not balanced to run over 800spm, at or below 800, it just purrs along.

Art

Hi Art,

How much heavier would you say the 4000p/Highlead is than the 4000R?

Ed