Leather Workers

[wareagle]

Ya know I understand some people on this board consider leather working an industry and as such won't share how they do something when asked, I'm fine with their attitude and understand why they do that. But Leather working is also a dieing art that needs to be passed on to our future generations, and if all of the leather workers took this view we would soon be without the art of leather working, and left with the mass producers turning out second rate knock offs of some of the best work here.

I for one came here to learn new techniques and advance my leather working knowledge, also to impart what little knowledge I have from the techniques I have learned over the past 30+ years.

The statement I remember most from the different teachers I have had is the way you learn is when you see a new skill, research it, study it, then adapt it for the way you work and make it your own.

Also there is no one way to obtain the same results. for example looking at the various ways of skiving.

[terrahyd]

the very reason we are here;;;;share and help,,

[dustin29]

I know I am very grateful of the veteran leatherworkers on this site that are willing to share their tricks and techniques. Thank You for all of your help!! With out your help and advice some of us greenhorns would be lost.

[rdb]

Never knew anyone on this board that didn't try and help someone with a problem, and there are thousands here!

There is a competitive edge between professionals, and rightly so. Not everything is going to get shared. Leatherwork is not a dying art. It takes long naps, and wakes up strong.

Patternmaking/Custom design is too hard and tends to be a lot of original thinking, so no, a pattern, or trademark type super secret construction method, may not get spread around willingly. But there are standards that everyone recognizes, and are perfectly willing to tell you the ins and outs...carving, stamping, lining up basketweaves, how to do binding, etc.

In different fields, like bikes, saddles, or holsters, it's hard to get picked out of the crowd by a customer. You have to have something special to stand out....so, maybe that little something doesn't get shared. A person has to try and make a little money at things first, before they give it away.

[King's X]

Did something happen off this forum?

[dirtclod]

I have to agree with rdb on that some things are given freely while other are not. Bottom line is it's a business for alot of folks. They don't have a job that pays the bills except for what their able to make and sell. It's their way of making a living.

If you have a question and i think i can help i will or try to anyway. I have learned lots of new ways of doing things on here and i'm gratefull for that to. Found some places to get things that i have looked for, for years but didn't know the right name for when i did a search.

Personally for me i have a couple of things i have been working on off and on for a couple of years trying to get them just right. I have sent alot of time making patterns trying to get them right. Lots money on leather for things that didn't work and had to be trashed. I have a box full of them right now. This is my living not a very good one right now but it's all i have. When i get it right it will be for sale and hopefully i can make some good money. But i'm not going to just give the working patterns away as soon as i get them done. It's just like if you invented some super dupper product after months or years and thousands of dollars spent, your not going to give it away for ever body to make. You want to at least get your money back before you tell ever body how to do it. Just like a secret sauce their not going to tell you ever thing that's in it.

[BAD HIDE]

Dying art - I can see how one could argue that, especially given the last 100 years or so. The biggest blow is the loss of the horse as a mode of transportation. The turn of the century, almost every family had at least one horse that needed saddles and tack, and every town had a leather worker to fix them. Then came plastics, vinyls, and more durable fabrics which replaced all the leather bags and cases that people used to carry around, and today's shoemaker is massively out gunned by cheap labor elsewhere. The old timers that did this before us didn't leave us very much for documentation, so that which we have is valuable and worth sharing.

So where does that leave leathercraft? There's still plenty of saddle makers still around, 'cuz people still have horses. There's plenty of pros that still make bags, wallets and everything else, and there's even more hobbyists and enthusiasts putting their time in. It's not dead so much as it's been spread a little thin. It might be harder to find someone else locally who wields a head knife, but they're out there, which is what this site is all about.

Instead of mourning the death of leathercraft, I mourn the death of having a hobby. I honestly don't know what other people do when they go home at night, other than plopping in front of the TV, getting stoned or drunk, or playing video games.

[ferret]

Can't say I've noticed a lack of help on here. When I signed up I thought I knew something about working leather, a quick browse through the forums showed me how wrong I was. I've never needed to ask a question because most of the answers are already here, along ways of avoiding problems before I knew they existed. As for "trade secrets" there is really only one, and that is frequently repeated on here, "keep practising" .

[UKRay]

Ya know I understand some people on this board consider leather working an industry and as such won't share how they do something when asked, I'm fine with their attitude and understand why they do that. But Leather working is also a dieing art that needs to be passed on to our future generations, and if all of the leather workers took this view we would soon be without the art of leather working, and left with the mass producers turning out second rate knock offs of some of the best work here.

I'm truly amazed to read this post.

I can honestly say that in the time I've been associated with LW I can count on the fingers of one hand the few miserable specimens who have been 'dog in the manger' about their knowledge. Generally they don't last long here - about as long as those who make sweeping statements that don't stand up to inspection and those who are simply trying to stir up trouble.

People on LW are hugely generous with their knowledge and expertise. 'Ask and you shall receive' would be a good motto for this board. Maybe the problem is that questions need to be asked the right way. Politely, with humility and respect - rather than issued as a demand or expected as a 'right'.

People come here for all kinds of reasons. Some to learn and others to teach. Some just come for the company and fellowship offered by the board members. Nobody comes here to fulfil the intellectual wish-lists of those too idle to do their own research. Those of us who run businesses may not always have the time to respond fully to a poorly phrased question but I'm absolutely confident that most leather business people are happy to help in any way they can. I can cite numerous instances when business folk have done precisely that thing for me at a cost of hours hunched over a computer keyboard explaining fine details or even sending me tools, patterns and detailed instructions. God bless you all!

RDB makes a very relevant point when he says that unique patterns and techniques aren't often shared - you are welcome to check some of my previous posts for my personal opinions on this, but essentially we all spend years learning how to make good patterns and developing better ways of doing a task and don't generally feel inclined to share this around the leatherworking community unless we are being paid to teach a class. These things are the intellectual property that makes our businesses unique. They are business critical knowledge and the foundation of our business success. If you want this stuff then do what we did and work for it - put the time in on the bench, read the books, watch the DVDs, visit and talk to other leatherworkers, learn to use your tools and try to understand your materials. eventually, and with any luck, the 'Force' will be with you!

Personally I don't see 'second rate knock offs' here on the board and I don't see requests for help ignored; I do, however, see a huge number of people working hard to develop their skills, build their knowledge bases and businesses without expecting others to do all the hard work for them. I also see a vast number of innovative, exciting and often potentially commercial ideas shared with enthusiasm by an amazing bunch of people.

Are you looking at the same posts as me?

Ray

[Luke Hatley]

I'm truly amazed to read this post.

I can honestly say that in the time I've been associated with LW I can count on the fingers of one hand the few miserable specimens who have been 'dog in the manger' about their knowledge. Generally they don't last long here - about as long as those who make sweeping statements that don't stand up to inspection and those who are simply trying to stir up trouble.

People on LW are hugely generous with their knowledge and expertise. 'Ask and you shall receive' would be a good motto for this board. Maybe the problem is that questions need to be asked the right way. Politely, with humility and respect - rather than issued as a demand or expected as a 'right'.

People come here for all kinds of reasons. Some to learn and others to teach. Some just come for the company and fellowship offered by the board members. Nobody comes here to fulfil the intellectual wish-lists of those too idle to do their own research. Those of us who run businesses may not always have the time to respond fully to a poorly phrased question but I'm absolutely confident that most leather business people are happy to help in any way they can. I can cite numerous instances when business folk have done precisely that thing for me at a cost of hours hunched over a computer keyboard explaining fine details or even sending me tools, patterns and detailed instructions. God bless you all!

RDB makes a very relevant point when he says that unique patterns and techniques aren't often shared - you are welcome to check some of my previous posts for my personal opinions on this, but essentially we all spend years learning how to make good patterns and developing better ways of doing a task and don't generally feel inclined to share this around the leatherworking community unless we are being paid to teach a class. These things are the intellectual property that makes our businesses unique. They are business critical knowledge and the foundation of our business success. If you want this stuff then do what we did and work for it - put the time in on the bench, read the books, watch the DVDs, visit and talk to other leatherworkers, learn to use your tools and try to understand your materials. eventually, and with any luck, the 'Force' will be with you!

Personally I don't see 'second rate knock offs' here on the board and I don't see requests for help ignored; I do, however, see a huge number of people working hard to develop their skills, build their knowledge bases and businesses without expecting others to do all the hard work for them. I also see a vast number of innovative, exciting and often potentially commercial ideas shared with enthusiasm by an amazing bunch of people.

Are you looking at the same posts as me?

Ray

Well put Ray............

[gary]

Well put Ray............

Ditto.

I have never been refused help when appealing for assistance on this forum. Even some who may regard their patterns as their stock-in-trade have assisted me tremendously and for all those who have helped I am most sincerely grateful.

One could not ask for a better group to be around and I have found the open-ness and generosity refreshing and it has challenged some of my rather cynical ideas about human nature.

And no post on this subject can be complete withoout acknowledging those who have made and are continue to make LW possible.

Gary

[wareagle]

Where I am coming from is the the less than 10% of the people here that when a question on how to do something is asked their response is go find out for your self that is what I had to do. instead of pointing out that the technique is called and if they know of a tutorial pointing to it or a short explanation on how to do it or to reference a book for the more complex techniques. but for them just to say do it yourself and find it your self is rude and crude and leaves the forum looking bad for the new people trying to learn.

For the most part everybody here is very helpful and willing to answer questions, and I thank you for that.

Edited September 3, 2010 by wareagle

[King's X]

I can't really comment back on RDB cause I do this as a hobby and give most of my patterns away. For me if it turns out to be work, I already have a job and don't need another one, so I keep it fun to keep truckin! Like UK Ray said, I have personally run into about a handful of people who will not share their stuff on the full spectrum from skills, techniques to patterns or ideas. For me that is cool, but it never hurts to ask. If you get turned down, move on and don't dwell on something you cannot change! I find inspiration from this forum on many of my ideas, but if my final concept come close to or repeating a pattern, I make a college effort to drop a dime as we use to say and ask/advise the original owner if they are cool with it.

As for the rest of the forum members, they have shared with me and I have tried to return the favor to others who are attempting to learn as I have been doing for the past couple of years. So, come over to me site and I would be willing to help out anyway I can.

Good luck.

[rcsaddles]

I will admit I did not read all the posts on this thread but I have to agree that I'm here not only to learn more but also to help others. I love doing the leatherwork I do. Will also admit that I have spread myself way too thin and trying to do too much and don't do any of it real well.

I have given away pattern when asked and most of the time covered the postage. Made a few trades with some people and sold items for others here. In the future, I think before the end of the year, I may be advertising a couple sewing machines for sale. I believe that the Lord blessed me when I got started so I am trying to be a blessing to others by helping them.

I also believe the leather working is a dying art. I personally have not run in to anyone on this site that was not ready and willing to help. I got flower patterns on here and now I make the flowers and that is my most requested item for the past six months.

This site has such a wealth of information from the people here that it is just amazing. Someone said something about watch the way others do things, adjust it to work for you and improve upon it. There are not many things that can only be done one way only. I would tell others to try it and then make it work for you.

[UKRay]

Personally, I'm more than a little concerned that people think leatherworking is a dying craft as I most emphatically don't agree.

I would agree that certain aspects of leather work have had their best days, including some of the traditional 'horse related' industries but even these are being superseded by new demands for products. The rise in recreational horsemanship has never been stronger and this has created a demand all its own.

Fashion is demanding leatherwork of all kinds and the race is on to find new colours, textures and ways of joining and decorating leather. It has spawned a myriad of 'supporting' industries making amazing conchos, unusual spots and studs, elaborate buckles, rivets and all the other hardware used by leatherworkers. Leatherworking tool sales are increasing worldwide - this is not the sign of a dying industry, more one that is moving away from old fashioned ideas and embracing new concepts and conventions.

Okay, there are those who say that leather is being replaced by plastic but I'm afraid I don't agree with that either! No plastic can ever replace the look feel, smell and prestige of genuine leather. How many people would prefer a plastic belt to hold their pants up? Not many and, with the rise in concerns about global warming, oil based plastics are increasingly seen as environmentally (and socially) unacceptable. Leather, as a by-product of the food industry, is a lot less harmful to the planet.

This is a time of incredible creativity in the world of leatherworking. In addition to traditional skills we are now using new and exciting techniques (computer controlled lasers, water jet cutting and gas powered thermal lances to name but a few). How can anyone say this is a dying art? That is patently nonsense as it is growing in popularity across the world. Okay, geographically things are shifting around but that doesn't mean it is dying - just moving!

Just look at the facts: Initially the centre of the world's leather industry was based in Walsall, England, then, as the US market developed the emphasis shifted across the pond. Now we are starting to see the most amazing leatherwork coming out of China. How can anyone begin to think that the industry is on its last legs? It is simply developing and evolving - and obviously some people are having a problem keeping up!

If you choose to adopt a doom and gloom approach to leatherworking you are doing the industry and yourself no favours. We need to recognise the positive aspects of leatherworking and reflect them to the rest of the world. We need to build the 'leather' brand and support it - IMHO, saying the industry is dying is neither true nor remotely helpful.

Ray

[jeeperaz]

A rant if you will....

Early last month, someone posted a picture of an item they made. I replied with my admiration for the piece. I then sent them a PM to ask more info about a type of rivet they used. A few days went by without a reply so I posted again to the original thread in case they somehow missed my PM. Well, with the new software here, I can see that the person has indeed read my PM and obviously chooses to ignore my very general inquiry.... about a brass rivet for god's sake. I wasn't asking for their source... I just asked him if he could tell me more about it and if it's hard to set.

I guess what bothers me most is this person's contribution on leatherworker.net is almost entirely made up of them asking questions or seeking info.

Luckily, this place is full of people at the other end of the character spectrum.

[Billy P]

Personally, I'm more than a little concerned that people think leatherworking is a dying craft as I most emphatically don't agree.

I would agree that certain aspects of leather work have had their best days, including some of the traditional 'horse related' industries but even these are being superseded by new demands for products. The rise in recreational horsemanship has never been stronger and this has created a demand all its own.

Fashion is demanding leatherwork of all kinds and the race is on to find new colours, textures and ways of joining and decorating leather. It has spawned a myriad of 'supporting' industries making amazing conchos, unusual spots and studs, elaborate buckles, rivets and all the other hardware used by leatherworkers. Leatherworking tool sales are increasing worldwide - this is not the sign of a dying industry, more one that is moving away from old fashioned ideas and embracing new concepts and conventions.

Okay, there are those who say that leather is being replaced by plastic but I'm afraid I don't agree with that either! No plastic can ever replace the look feel, smell and prestige of genuine leather. How many people would prefer a plastic belt to hold their pants up? Not many and, with the rise in concerns about global warming, oil based plastics are increasingly seen as environmentally (and socially) unacceptable. Leather, as a by-product of the food industry, is a lot less harmful to the planet.

This is a time of incredible creativity in the world of leatherworking. In addition to traditional skills we are now using new and exciting techniques (computer controlled lasers, water jet cutting and gas powered thermal lances to name but a few). How can anyone say this is a dying art? That is patently nonsense as it is growing in popularity across the world. Okay, geographically things are shifting around but that doesn't mean it is dying - just moving!

Just look at the facts: Initially the centre of the world's leather industry was based in Walsall, England, then, as the US market developed the emphasis shifted across the pond. Now we are starting to see the most amazing leatherwork coming out of China. How can anyone begin to think that the industry is on its last legs? It is simply developing and evolving - and obviously some people are having a problem keeping up!

If you choose to adopt a doom and gloom approach to leatherworking you are doing the industry and yourself no favours. We need to recognise the positive aspects of leatherworking and reflect them to the rest of the world. We need to build the 'leather' brand and support it - IMHO, saying the industry is dying is neither true nor remotely helpful.

Ray

I just wanted to comment on what Ray said about the plastic belts and such. I just finished up (2) belts for people here in my small town. Our population is about 350 people. They both had belts one from Wal-Mart the other from a higher end department/clothing store. Both of their belts were torn up, because of being belts. The plastic just can't hold up to bigger people wearing them every day. One guy wore his one day and the next morning asked me to make him another one in black. You can make a lot of the same things in plastic as you can in leather, but the plastic is never gonna hold up to heavy use as well. What does a person gain if he buys 3 or 4 belts for $15 each and they wear out in a couple of weeks or gets a plain $40 leather belt that will last for years? Anyway my 2 cents worth Billy P

[UKRay]

A rant if you will....

I guess what bothers me most is this person's contribution on leatherworker.net is almost entirely made up of them asking questions or seeking info.

Luckily, this place is full of people at the other end of the character spectrum.

Jeeperaz - just let it go, fella. There are all sorts of folk in the world. Some give and others take. The takers don't end up with too many friends and eventually they move on. I say let 'em go while you stick with those folks who make a positive difference.

BillyP - I was a bit concerned that I was making the water too muddy but you have got exactly what I meant. Leather can't die because there is nothing better. End of story.

Ray

[Peter Ellis]

It's a curious thing.

Someone asks a question. They get a series of responses that do a very credible job of answering the question that was asked. In that series of responses is one that could fairly be described as brusque. It wasn't mean, but it also wasn't tender and patient.

That one response apparently prevented the person who asked the question from recognizing the numerous helpful answers provided (and btw, the response, while not gentle, contained helpful information).

And now, we're being focused on some small percentage of our community who may not always be willing to give away all of the secrets they've spent years of effort figuring out.

It's just silly.

Here's a truth about this craft (whether you work it for a living or just as a hobby): No one can give it to you.

You have to practice, you have to learn for yourself what works for you, you have to develop the hand-eye coordination, the sense of when the leather is right for the step you want to do next, the list goes on and on.

I have the devil's time working with meander stamps. I can't get them to line up consistently and in a line of any length I'll vary the depth of the impression too much. No one, anywhere, can tell me anything that will fix that

I just have to focus on doing each individual impression just right, make sure I line up properly and patiently hit it the same way as the last twenty. The only possible way for me to master these tools is for me to practice with intent to get better.

Sure, people can give us helpful suggestions and I've learned tons here. But, some of you are design geniuses and no amount of you telling me how you do it will make me one. Some are color and shading experts and I'll never match your skill no matter how much information you share with me. You can help me to help myself get better.

But you can't give it to me, and I wouldn't want it if you could. But I surely do appreciate your help as I try to figure it out

Edited September 4, 2010 by Peter Ellis

[BAD HIDE]

Good post Peter,

and it touches on a key part of teaching the craft - how open should we be to teach the secrets we've learned? Yeah, it's taken years of struggle to figure a few things out, but do we hold back what we've learned so the newbies take just as long to figure it out? Do we open up and give tips and pointers, so they don't waste their time like we did? Or do they not have the skills to utilize our secrets properly? All the help in the world isn't gonna teach a thing if you don't know what to do with them, and experience is the best teacher.

I've had to come up with a lot on my own, and even though there's a lot of info out there, there's very few places where you can find exactly the answer you need easily. The Stohlman books are excellent, but those are decades old and pretty much stand alone when it comes to quality info and patterns. There's excellent work and tutorials posted on this site, so I know the knowledge is out there, it's just not all written down nice and neat.

Edited September 4, 2010 by BAD HIDE

[hidepounder]

Wareagle,

When I read your post I was a little shocked at your comments because it's been my experience that the people on this forum are very generous with their advice and the time it takes to give it. And while I'm sure there have been unkind comments made from less than honorable individuals who have nothing to contribute to this forum or to anyone else for that matter, I really don't think they represent a fraction of the people that participate here and I'm sorry that your experience here has been otherwise.

I would like to say however, that not every query here deserves a response! There is a BIG difference between asking for guidance to improve and asking for a freebie at someone elses expense. It is pretty bad form to ask someone to share their proprietary technique or pattern that they spent days or weeks to perfect! Such a request will probably not evoke much feedback. But there is a lot of talent here anxious to help someone who wants to learn how to go about accomplishing these tasks for themselves. I like Peter's comment "You can help me to help myself get better". That is a terrific attitude and I believe the people associated with this forum will do just that!

You commented that this is a dying art but I couldn't disagree more! The greatest leather artists of all time are currently producing their best works. I believe we are currently living in the Renaissance of the leather industry. And the support industry has exploded providing new products and tools designed to expand and improve the capabilities of the leather artisan. Additionally there are more shows, schools and clinics where an indiviual has the opportunity to learn from the best in the business than has ever been available before.

I am proud to have the opportunity to be associated with the people on this forum as there are so many talented individuals here who give unselfishly of their time. I hope that your future experiences on this forum improve and that you will share your own expertise with those of us who are anxious to learn.

Bob Park

Edited September 4, 2010 by hidepounder

[UKRay]

"The greatest leather artists of all time are currently producing their best works. I believe this is the Renaissance of the leather industry."

Superb quote, Bob - we ought to have it on the front page of the forum!

Ray

[CitizenKate]

Where I am coming from is the the less than 10% of the people here that when a question on how to do something is asked their response is go find out for your self that is what I had to do. ... but for them just to say do it yourself and find it your self is rude and crude and leaves the forum looking bad for the new people trying to learn.

I know what you're referring to, and I hope you will allow me, as one of the site moderators, to indulge in speaking my mind on this topic.

I think it's very unfortunate when someone posts a response like that. If they don't care to share what they know, fine. That is the choice of everyone who visits here. But in that case, they might as well have just kept their virtual mouth shut and let someone who wants to be helpful respond next, instead of figuratively telling the OP (original poster) to get lost. This is a very good example of the very opposite of the spirit and attitude upon which Leatherworker.net was built. This site is about learning and sharing what knowledge and ideas we are willing to share. If everyone got an answer like that, we would have no reason to exist as an online community.

Now, on the other side of the coin... when someone asks a question, they should not assume they are entitled to an answer, and go off in a huff because they didn't get something they thought they were entitled to. The majority of the time, people here share quite generously, but we don't expect everyone who knows something to share anything and everything they know. Everyone has different ideas about creativity vs competition and how to ensure their place in the marketplace, and though we may not always agree, they are entitled to their own views and practices.

On some occasions when I myself could not get an answer I was looking for, I took that as my cue to proceed to R&D mode. (That's research and development, not to be mistaken for R&B, which is rhythm and blues. On second thought, come to think of it... but wait - I digress!!) That's when I start with the trial-and-error method of getting my answer. You cannot expect to get very far in your art without investing some sweat equity into it. Wasting some leather on prototypes, trying half-cooked ideas and failing a few times, then trying it again a different way, buying and reading books on numerous topics (not just leatherwork - there is knowledge to be gained about things you can do with leather from other forms of art and craft).

Am I willing to share what I learn that way? Absolutely, and in return, others have shared similar information that have helped me develop my art, and at the end of the day, we're all in a better place. That whole "competition" paradigm has just never worked for me; it's more about diverting energy away from the creation of new ideas, new processes, and new designs, and more on preventing others from reaching your own level, which then cuts you off from collaboration with others that may have in turn helped you. Maybe there will be one person who is at the top of the proverbial heap, but it ain't much of a heap, nowhutImean? Might as well call it a race to the bottom.

Focusing more on the creation of new work is my idea of a race to the top. And sure, someone else may beat me to the top of the heap - many already have in fact - it becomes a moot point because it's a lot bigger heap, and we're all better off than we would be, even compared to being at the top of that "other" heap I was talking about.

Patterns and designs are a different matter, of course, but I think others have addressed that topic adequately.

I've prattled on long enough... someone else's turn now.

Kate

[wareagle]

I fully agree Kate you put my thoughts into words better than I ever could .... get out of my head =-)

I know what you're referring to, and I hope you will allow me, as one of the site moderators, to indulge in speaking my mind on this topic.

I think it's very unfortunate when someone posts a response like that. If they don't care to share what they know, fine. That is the choice of everyone who visits here. But in that case, they might as well have just kept their virtual mouth shut and let someone who wants to be helpful respond next, instead of figuratively telling the OP (original poster) to get lost. This is a very good example of the very opposite of the spirit and attitude upon which Leatherworker.net was built. This site is about learning and sharing what knowledge and ideas we are willing to share. If everyone got an answer like that, we would have no reason to exist as an online community.

Now, on the other side of the coin... when someone asks a question, they should not assume they are entitled to an answer, and go off in a huff because they didn't get something they thought they were entitled to. The majority of the time, people here share quite generously, but we don't expect everyone who knows something to share anything and everything they know. Everyone has different ideas about creativity vs competition and how to ensure their place in the marketplace, and though we may not always agree, they are entitled to their own views and practices.

On some occasions when I myself could not get an answer I was looking for, I took that as my cue to proceed to R&D mode. (That's research and development, not to be mistaken for R&B, which is rhythm and blues. On second thought, come to think of it... but wait - I digress!!) That's when I start with the trial and error method of getting my answer. You cannot expect to get very far in your art without investing some sweat equity into it. Wasting some leather on prototypes, trying half-cooked ideas and failing a few times, then trying it again a different way, buying and reading books on numerous topics (not just leatherwork - there is knowledge to be gained about things you can do with leather from other forms of art and craft).

Am I willing to share what I learn that way? Absolutely, and in return, others have shared similar information that have helped me develop my art, and at the end of the day, we're all in a better place. That whole "competition" paradigm has just never worked for me; it's more about diverting energy away from the creation of new ideas, new processes, and new designs, and more on preventing others from reaching your own level, which then cuts you off from collaboration with others that may have in turn helped you. Maybe there will be one person who is at the top of the proverbial heap, but it ain't much of a heap, nowhutImean?

Focusing more on the creation of new work is my idea of a race to the top. And sure, someone else may beat me to the top of the heap - many already have in fact - it becomes a moot point because it's a lot bigger heap, and we're all better off than we would be, even compared to being at the top of that "other" heap I was talking about.

Patterns and designs are a different matter, of course, but I think others have addressed that topic adequately.

I've prattled on long enough... someone else's turn now.

Kate

[hidepounder]

That was very well said, Kate, I wish I could have expressed my feelings so well! Indeed I think all of the comments by Ray and RDB and everyone else have been excellent.

I believe I know what post wareagle is referring to also and I am glad you made some comments regarding it. I was angry when I read it and started to respond but decided I should keep my mouth shut. Upon reflection I suspect the individual who responded to the question didn't have a clue about the answer but felt some need to be condescending and mean spirited in order to boost his own ego. Someone should invent a spray for people like that! Thank goodness those kind of comments are not at all typical on this forum which is evidenced by those who have responded here.

I have spouted off twice now so I think it's time to get off my soapbox and go make something!

Bobby