Holster makers opinions requested

[okiwen]

I have a quandry. I have a few holsters that I bought for my service weapon. I then made a similar holster for another gun (a guy could go broke on holsters), I have people that I work for that need holsters and now I have the ability to make them.

How much of a change is needed before other makers don't feel ripped-off or offended. I happen to have great respect for this maker and the others that I have seen here, as a matter of fact, so I don't want anyone mad. I just think that very few ideas are truely original anymore.

Thanks for the opinions,

Kevin

[Shorts]

Kevin, I agree with what you said 'very few ideas are truly original anymore'. Your question reminds me of a thread that was posted in another forum. A guy received his holster from Brand X and loved it. And someone else chimed in and said 'Brand X was a knock off of Brand C so of course the pattern was good. And if they were Brand C they'd sue the dudes pants off for copyright'.

This got me to thinking about how I would feel if I was either Brand X or Brand C in this situation and its really hard to say. Some other posters had good input about copyrights. And technically, an item needs to use the exact same materials and technique and be virtually identical to qualify as an infringement. But if someone used my patterns (yeah right! lol), I would at least like some credit...ie, "this one was inspired by Shorts' snap on pattern..."

I was on the fence about it all though, when someone else posted a thump on the forehead about supply and demand. If customers are waiting months and months for an item from Brand C and they find a similar item from Brand X who can supply it in a matter of weeks, that buyer is well within his rights to go to Brand X to get his item. I'm not saying this excuses any possible breech by Brand X and hopefully it is at least legal if not ethical. I would liken it to the fashion world with knock-off Coach purses and whatnot

I suppose there are a lot of courtesies involved here, and possibly legalities. I know I wouldn't want to do anything to cause a stir, the same as you which is why you posted. I'm pretty interested in this thread and hopefully more voices can shed some light about the proper thing to do. I've added absolutely nothing to this conversation - I think my morning coffee is finally kicking in

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

You can use similar principles without infringing on others' inovations, but there are only so many ways to make a holster. If I design a holster myself and see that a similar holster is already being made, I contact the maker and ask their permission if a distict feature I want to incorperate is unique to their work. I make my own variation of some of the classics, but permission can no longer be granted as the designers are no longer with us. With these holsters I still give credit to the original designers in my site descriptions.

[Jordan]

Make your own patterns do your own reaserch and developement etc. I doubt if there would be a problem if you produced your own documentation for a specific holster you make if asked by someone to prove it's your own work. That said, size shape and such are limited due to the nature of the product. Where you would probably run into snags is a design that incorporates any attachment method that has a patent. I don't think that belt slots would as they are pretty generic. I am sure there are alot of other opinons in this area. and pre crash of 08 there was a brief somewhat heated thread on the subject. Main jist was as I said above do your own work in design and testing and have documentation.

[TwinOaks]

Interesting topic!

I made a holster loosely modeled on a post made by Jordan, and credited him, and asked permission. Later I found a similar style called Askin's Avenger, which seems to be a root for LOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTSSSSSS of holsters. Boomstick even has one on his website, and says " ...my take on the Askin's Avenger....." or something similar. So I think that if there is a 'generic' version of a holster, then freedom of design should be expressed. However,in an event we had here, a member touted his 'new' design to be made for Wilson Combat. Tony K. was notified and rebuffed the guy's claim by posting pics of the holsters that he's been making for a good while. There was enough difference in the design to be technically different (1 snap vs. 2), but the whole thing was clearly a remake of Tony's design. Perhaps the worst outcome for the guy was that Tony K. knows Bill Wilson personally, and intended to give him a call to inform him of the 'knock-off' status of the holsters. If that played out, then the order could have been canceled, and the guy's reputation ruined. Incidentally, it was pre-crash, and I don't know the actual outcome of the squabble. My point is that there could be far reaching consequences for infringement that don't even include the law.

Personally, I'd be just giddy if someone decided to exactly copy my design....as long as that person didn't cut into my profits

[paris3200]

A few months back I was going through the archives of the pistolsmith forum reading anything I could about making holsters. During that time I stumbled upon a few threads about this same topic. Here are two quotes from those threads which I believe sum everything up.

Knockoffs in the holster industry are almost unavoidable. When dealing with a fixed dimension (such as a gun), many makers will come up with the same conclusion for a holster design. I just had this same comversation with Derry Gallagher who is a master in his own right. http://www.dgallagherholsters.com

Many times a holster maker will think of a new design to add to his line, only find out later that it's already been done. Sometimes long before. In some cases, a maker will see a design that is sucessfull, and tweak it to conform to his thinking. Look at the number of people who are making a version of the Nelson/Sparks Summer Special. When the late Bruce Nelson designed this holster, it was indeed new. Today, most every maker in the industry makes a version of it.

If a design has been patented, then copying it would constitute patent infringement, and the person infringing can be sued in Federal Court. There are two types of Patents, a Utility Patent, and a Design Patent. The Utility Patent offers protection for 17 years, and the Design Patent is about a third of that. The difference is a design patent offers protection in the way an article 'looks', and a Utility Patent covers the actual performance of the design, and the product. Design Patents offer much less protection because if someone alters the 'design' by a certain percentage, the Patent cannot be enforced.

-- Lou Alessi

Truth be told, there are only so many ways you can wrap a piece of leather around a gun and call it a holster.

-- Mark Garrity

Jason

[okiwen]

I have made a concerted effort to design my own holsters with the idea of what would I carry. Then have found that what I would carry is so very similar to what I carry. I spend a lot of effort to be "original" and find that original has already been done.

I have not even thought about the legal aspect of the designs but the respect aspect. I think I have a really cool design that I know can be done better faster by the likes of Garrity and Alessi because they have the equipment and the name recognition to benefit. But by the same token, the basic holster that my idea sets upon is more like another makers.

I like leather work and respect greatly those that have gone before, I just want a consensus as to what is good form and what is understood among those that produce.

I thank you all for the input and look forward to further opinion. It matters to me.

[Regis]

Interesting subject and I agree with much that has been said. Does the same hold true for saddles? If I made a holster exactly like a famous design but, carved/tooled a scene on it, does that make it acceptable? I make holsters by deciding a general style like pancake, through the back, loops w/snaps, western, IWB, etc. And, if friend/customer wants certain cant and color or clip pouch or tooled. I don't copy any and, I haven't even made 2 that look exactly alike. I lay the blue gun or gun on flat or folded paper to get rough dimentions (to be trimmed later). Transfer pattern to leather and on from there using lots of techniques I've learned from folks here. If I end up with a copy of one somebody's patented (or not) design, it would be merely by chance. I occasionally have to discard a peice of leather (before or after sewing) because I don't have a clicker and each piece is a bit unique.

If someone showed me a picture of a holster that they wanted, I'd get permission to copy or not make it. I don't beleive in copying something, then making tiney change to avoid infringement.

Good discussion.

Regis

Edited April 28, 2008 by Regis

[TwinOaks]

Another aspect that I believe would definitely be copyright infringement would be if a maker used a 'trade name'. For instance, if I started turning our roughout holsters and called them "summer special"s then I'd be treading on Milt Spark's toes rather badly. But, the idea of a rough out holster at a 10 degree cant certainly isn't new. If a maker does like Jordan said, and documents his development of a product, regardless to similarity of an established product, then I don't think there would be serious repercussions.

[okiwen]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I know that some people can be impationed by topic like this, that is why I ask. I am not so good that anybody would want to copy me so I guess the concern for my designs are many years off. I have no intenton of coping directly others but the suggestion of contacting the makers that are similar in design is a good one as well.