Holster makers opinions requested

[okiwen]

I have a quandry. I have a few holsters that I bought for my service weapon. I then made a similar holster for another gun (a guy could go broke on holsters), I have people that I work for that need holsters and now I have the ability to make them.

How much of a change is needed before other makers don't feel ripped-off or offended. I happen to have great respect for this maker and the others that I have seen here, as a matter of fact, so I don't want anyone mad. I just think that very few ideas are truely original anymore.

Thanks for the opinions,

Kevin

[Shorts]

Kevin, I agree with what you said 'very few ideas are truly original anymore'. Your question reminds me of a thread that was posted in another forum. A guy received his holster from Brand X and loved it. And someone else chimed in and said 'Brand X was a knock off of Brand C so of course the pattern was good. And if they were Brand C they'd sue the dudes pants off for copyright'.

This got me to thinking about how I would feel if I was either Brand X or Brand C in this situation and its really hard to say. Some other posters had good input about copyrights. And technically, an item needs to use the exact same materials and technique and be virtually identical to qualify as an infringement. But if someone used my patterns (yeah right! lol), I would at least like some credit...ie, "this one was inspired by Shorts' snap on pattern..."

I was on the fence about it all though, when someone else posted a thump on the forehead about supply and demand. If customers are waiting months and months for an item from Brand C and they find a similar item from Brand X who can supply it in a matter of weeks, that buyer is well within his rights to go to Brand X to get his item. I'm not saying this excuses any possible breech by Brand X and hopefully it is at least legal if not ethical. I would liken it to the fashion world with knock-off Coach purses and whatnot

I suppose there are a lot of courtesies involved here, and possibly legalities. I know I wouldn't want to do anything to cause a stir, the same as you which is why you posted. I'm pretty interested in this thread and hopefully more voices can shed some light about the proper thing to do. I've added absolutely nothing to this conversation - I think my morning coffee is finally kicking in

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

You can use similar principles without infringing on others' inovations, but there are only so many ways to make a holster. If I design a holster myself and see that a similar holster is already being made, I contact the maker and ask their permission if a distict feature I want to incorperate is unique to their work. I make my own variation of some of the classics, but permission can no longer be granted as the designers are no longer with us. With these holsters I still give credit to the original designers in my site descriptions.

[Jordan]

Make your own patterns do your own reaserch and developement etc. I doubt if there would be a problem if you produced your own documentation for a specific holster you make if asked by someone to prove it's your own work. That said, size shape and such are limited due to the nature of the product. Where you would probably run into snags is a design that incorporates any attachment method that has a patent. I don't think that belt slots would as they are pretty generic. I am sure there are alot of other opinons in this area. and pre crash of 08 there was a brief somewhat heated thread on the subject. Main jist was as I said above do your own work in design and testing and have documentation.

[TwinOaks]

Interesting topic!

I made a holster loosely modeled on a post made by Jordan, and credited him, and asked permission. Later I found a similar style called Askin's Avenger, which seems to be a root for LOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTSSSSSS of holsters. Boomstick even has one on his website, and says " ...my take on the Askin's Avenger....." or something similar. So I think that if there is a 'generic' version of a holster, then freedom of design should be expressed. However,in an event we had here, a member touted his 'new' design to be made for Wilson Combat. Tony K. was notified and rebuffed the guy's claim by posting pics of the holsters that he's been making for a good while. There was enough difference in the design to be technically different (1 snap vs. 2), but the whole thing was clearly a remake of Tony's design. Perhaps the worst outcome for the guy was that Tony K. knows Bill Wilson personally, and intended to give him a call to inform him of the 'knock-off' status of the holsters. If that played out, then the order could have been canceled, and the guy's reputation ruined. Incidentally, it was pre-crash, and I don't know the actual outcome of the squabble. My point is that there could be far reaching consequences for infringement that don't even include the law.

Personally, I'd be just giddy if someone decided to exactly copy my design....as long as that person didn't cut into my profits

[paris3200]

A few months back I was going through the archives of the pistolsmith forum reading anything I could about making holsters. During that time I stumbled upon a few threads about this same topic. Here are two quotes from those threads which I believe sum everything up.

Knockoffs in the holster industry are almost unavoidable. When dealing with a fixed dimension (such as a gun), many makers will come up with the same conclusion for a holster design. I just had this same comversation with Derry Gallagher who is a master in his own right. http://www.dgallagherholsters.com

Many times a holster maker will think of a new design to add to his line, only find out later that it's already been done. Sometimes long before. In some cases, a maker will see a design that is sucessfull, and tweak it to conform to his thinking. Look at the number of people who are making a version of the Nelson/Sparks Summer Special. When the late Bruce Nelson designed this holster, it was indeed new. Today, most every maker in the industry makes a version of it.

If a design has been patented, then copying it would constitute patent infringement, and the person infringing can be sued in Federal Court. There are two types of Patents, a Utility Patent, and a Design Patent. The Utility Patent offers protection for 17 years, and the Design Patent is about a third of that. The difference is a design patent offers protection in the way an article 'looks', and a Utility Patent covers the actual performance of the design, and the product. Design Patents offer much less protection because if someone alters the 'design' by a certain percentage, the Patent cannot be enforced.

-- Lou Alessi

Truth be told, there are only so many ways you can wrap a piece of leather around a gun and call it a holster.

-- Mark Garrity

Jason

[okiwen]

I have made a concerted effort to design my own holsters with the idea of what would I carry. Then have found that what I would carry is so very similar to what I carry. I spend a lot of effort to be "original" and find that original has already been done.

I have not even thought about the legal aspect of the designs but the respect aspect. I think I have a really cool design that I know can be done better faster by the likes of Garrity and Alessi because they have the equipment and the name recognition to benefit. But by the same token, the basic holster that my idea sets upon is more like another makers.

I like leather work and respect greatly those that have gone before, I just want a consensus as to what is good form and what is understood among those that produce.

I thank you all for the input and look forward to further opinion. It matters to me.

[Regis]

Interesting subject and I agree with much that has been said. Does the same hold true for saddles? If I made a holster exactly like a famous design but, carved/tooled a scene on it, does that make it acceptable? I make holsters by deciding a general style like pancake, through the back, loops w/snaps, western, IWB, etc. And, if friend/customer wants certain cant and color or clip pouch or tooled. I don't copy any and, I haven't even made 2 that look exactly alike. I lay the blue gun or gun on flat or folded paper to get rough dimentions (to be trimmed later). Transfer pattern to leather and on from there using lots of techniques I've learned from folks here. If I end up with a copy of one somebody's patented (or not) design, it would be merely by chance. I occasionally have to discard a peice of leather (before or after sewing) because I don't have a clicker and each piece is a bit unique.

If someone showed me a picture of a holster that they wanted, I'd get permission to copy or not make it. I don't beleive in copying something, then making tiney change to avoid infringement.

Good discussion.

Regis

Edited April 28, 2008 by Regis

[TwinOaks]

Another aspect that I believe would definitely be copyright infringement would be if a maker used a 'trade name'. For instance, if I started turning our roughout holsters and called them "summer special"s then I'd be treading on Milt Spark's toes rather badly. But, the idea of a rough out holster at a 10 degree cant certainly isn't new. If a maker does like Jordan said, and documents his development of a product, regardless to similarity of an established product, then I don't think there would be serious repercussions.

[okiwen]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I know that some people can be impationed by topic like this, that is why I ask. I am not so good that anybody would want to copy me so I guess the concern for my designs are many years off. I have no intenton of coping directly others but the suggestion of contacting the makers that are similar in design is a good one as well.

[Art]

Hi Kevin,

All the great "innovations" in Western (including quickdraw) and "concealed carry" holsters have been made. Nobody cares about duty gear anymore as the liability is just too dear, let the "Big Boys" play in that ballpark. Anything innovative was probably done years ago in our world and patents are as such of no concern. A holster is pretty much a holster and I would worry more about making one so much "like" a particular gun that you infringed the gunmakers copyright (not patent), however I have never seen or heard of that being claimed.

With prominent holster makers "teaching" and producing videos on holster design in is inevitable for two (or more) different makers to produce something that looks identical with no knowledge of each other's work. Given that folks have been out there making and using these things for over 150 years and you magnify that probability; add to that the fact that handguns just aren't that different, probably because hands haven't changed that much.

We all start out with a basic pattern (the handgun) and go from there, the "from there" makes the difference. Copy whomever's pattern you want and put some "from there" into it. As far as asking someone's permission to use a "design", if the pattern is that unique then you should be paying a royalty, however it is usually not hard to look in the catalogs and books to find something very similar (identical maybe?).

Look at some of the sites on the following list and see if they are making something similar to what you are making (no matter where you got the pattern from) and you will find (more likely than not) more than one of these guys making it. The question is who copied from whom?

http://www.alessiholsters.com

http://www.alessileather.com

http://www.alfonsosgunleather.com

http://www.akerleather.com

http://www.andrewsleather.com

http://www.arredondoaccessories.com

http://www.banderagunleather.com

http://www.bellcharteroakholsters.com

http://www.blackhawk.com

http://www.blackhillsleather.com

http://www.blade-tech.com

http://www.bianchi-intl.com

http://www.brigadegunleather.com

http://www.bulmangunleather.com

http://www.buybrownholsters.com

http://www.c-rusty.com

http://www.comp-tac.com

http://www.concealco.com

http://www.delfatti.com

http://www.desantisholster.com

http://www.dillonprecision.com

http://www.donhume.com

http://www.epsaddlery.com

http://www.findesigns.net

http://www.fobusholster.com

http://www.gouldusa.com

http://www.haugenhandgunleather.com

http://www.highnoonholsters.com

http://www.holsters.org

http://www.holsters.com

http://www.holstersplus.com

http://www.kirkpatrickleather.com

http://www.klnullholsters.com

http://www.kramerleather.com

http://www.lasports.biz/products.htm

http://www.littlefeatherleather.com

http://www.miltsparks.com

http://www.mitchrosen.com

http://www.nelsonleather.com

http://www.palehorseholsters.com

http://www.politesociety.com

http://www.phalanxarms.com

http://www.pwlusa.com

http://www.raftersgunleather.com

http://www.rangergunleather.com

http://www.rfholsters.com/rfholsters/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=10

http://www.safariland.com

http://www.sidearmor.com

http://www.shado.com

http://www.shootingsystems.com

http://www.smartcarry.com

http://www.stallionleather.com

http://www.strong-holster.com

http://www.stellarrigs.com

http://www.sunriseleather.com

http://www.tacticalholsters.com/gcode.htm

http://www.tac-pro.com

http://www.tdlabs.com

http://www.tedblocker.com

http://www.thunderwear.com

http://www.uncle-mikes.com

http://www.usgalco.com

http://www.vegaholster.com

http://www.wildbillsconcealment.com

Art

Thanks for the input everyone.

I know that some people can be impationed by topic like this, that is why I ask. I am not so good that anybody would want to copy me so I guess the concern for my designs are many years off. I have no intenton of coping directly others but the suggestion of contacting the makers that are similar in design is a good one as well.

[K-Man]

Patents do exist for some of the holsters. Bianchi has a multitude of them. Some of the holster makers mentioned in the above list do have patents on some of their products. Some of the holster makers mentioned in the above list don't care about such rights and blatantly copy others. To each their own, but it is generally frowned upon within the custom holster maker industry to do that. Making a copy of any holster for one's own personal use is not the issue. It's when you copy/make the holster and transfer it to another for something of value in return. Just my $.01.

[sfcdan]

Adding to this topic, can any one explain the liabilities of holster making? I've been doing leather work for approximately one year, 6 months ago I found this website, which I can't stop reading since. I finally moved on to holster making. Since my first holster 3 weeks ago, my friends have constantly bugged me to make one for them. I'm hesitant to make anything for any one because I don't know how liable I am with my products. Again, if any one can explain it to me, it would be great.

[David]

Interesting subject, I would agree about making your own patters and assembling the way you normally would. I wouldn't worry too much about patent infringement if you save all your patterns and trial and errors. Let's face it, you are going to make....what...maybe 30 or so holsters? I doubt that a company would buy one of your hand made holsters just to tear it apart to see if it is exactly like theirs....Now if you were making 30,000 holsters....you better worry....A LOT! And find a patent attorney!!

(the penalty for willful patent infringement is triple the damages)! Let's say you swiped some big company's holster design and made an exact copy of their product. The company proves in court that they make $20 per holster. You would owe them $20 X 3 (triple damages) X 30,000 holsters (if you made that many)....that is a fine of 1.8 million dollars. So you might want to think twice about doing that.

David Theobald

40 years in the patent illustration business.

Edited May 11, 2008 by David

[Shorts]

Adding to this topic, can any one explain the liabilities of holster making? I've been doing leather work for approximately one year, 6 months ago I found this website, which I can't stop reading since. I finally moved on to holster making. Since my first holster 3 weeks ago, my friends have constantly bugged me to make one for them. I'm hesitant to make anything for any one because I don't know how liable I am with my products. Again, if any one can explain it to me, it would be great.

In this litigous society we live in, its a very smart idea to have insurance. Also, depending on your entity status, its even smarter to have insurance. I'm currently setting up my things too so its all fresh on my mind.

[David]

Adding to this topic, can any one explain the liabilities of holster making? I've been doing leather work for approximately one year, 6 months ago I found this website, which I can't stop reading since. I finally moved on to holster making. Since my first holster 3 weeks ago, my friends have constantly bugged me to make one for them. I'm hesitant to make anything for any one because I don't know how liable I am with my products. Again, if any one can explain it to me, it would be great.

A complaintaint would have to prove that your inferior holster caused some sort of damage to him. I think that would be difficult unless your holster can cause someone to take off the safety and also cause them to pull the trigger. Stranger things have happened but judges are getting wise to these kinds of liability scams now.

Of course you could protect yourself a bit by forming a LLC (limited liability company) Not too expensive but will probably require an attorney.

David Theobald

[K-Man]

It only takes one holster to constitute a patent infringement. And while there are some companies who hold the patent that would not bother with such a violation, there are other companies that will.

Worth the risk? That's ultimately up to you to decide. It's best to do the research with respect to a patented holster design and/or feature and avoid the risk IMO.

Edited May 11, 2008 by K-Man

[Jordan]

That is one of the toughest areas of product development for an artisan, trying to figure out how many stupid ways people will misuse your product or any product for that matter, kinda like the story about the guy who put his brand new motor home on cruise control and went into the back to make a samich LOL. One I know did happen was a semi driver that tried to close the side access door by stepping out on the running board, and he fell off. lucky the dummy was in a parking lot at very low speed, but he still got run over, didn't walk to well for awhile after that.

[custom79]

You might want to have a look at the site I've included in this post.

This craftsmans work does seem similar to the photos you've shown.

It's always best to be aware of what others have put together.

http://rlcompanyusa.stores.yahoo.net/beltholsters2.html

Best regards.

C79

[TKanaley]

However,in an event we had here, a member touted his 'new' design to be made for Wilson Combat. Tony K. was notified and rebuffed the guy's claim by posting pics of the holsters that he's been making for a good while. There was enough difference in the design to be technically different (1 snap vs. 2), but the whole thing was clearly a remake of Tony's design. Perhaps the worst outcome for the guy was that Tony K. knows Bill Wilson personally, and intended to give him a call to inform him of the 'knock-off' status of the holsters. If that played out, then the order could have been canceled, and the guy's reputation ruined. Incidentally, it was pre-crash, and I don't know the actual outcome of the squabble. My point is that there could be far reaching consequences for infringement that don't even include the law.

Personally, I'd be just giddy if someone decided to exactly copy my design....as long as that person didn't cut into my profits

I don't know that the guy's reputation was ruined, but I did speak with Bill Wilson and if you peruse the Wilson site, you will note the holster in question is no longer available. Bill didn't have to discontinue that model and I didn't ask him to. That was a decision he made probably based on the fact that Wilson has had enough of his own product designs "borrowed" to have a sympathetic ear to the dilemma.

As far as copying other designs go. As been mentioned by another poster, I don't think it's too much trouble for one maker to give credit to another where credit is due.

Personally, I don't too much care if a maker copies a product of our innovation as long as they at least make an attempt to improve on the design. When Milt first asked Bruce Nelson for permission to make the Summer Special, Milt didn't intend just to copy it. Milt added sight rails and later a second loop which differentiated it quite a bit from the original. Even still we have always given Bruce the recognition as the original designer.

If a maker can't replicate one of our designs without being blatant, or at least give credit, or ask permission. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but they shouldn't ever expect my respect as a peer (not like they would care anyway). I know of two current makers that pretty much owe their entire existence to the innovations of Del Fatti and Sparks. They won't admit to "borrowing", much less give credit, because to do so would be like admitting they have nothing to bring to the table other than what they can steal from the hard work of others. Tis sad, but true.

I would say, be respectful and try to bring something to the table instead of just being content to sit at it. We all have to start somewhere and sometimes it evolves around the ideas of others, but that's no reason to limit yourself and let everyone else do the thinking for you. To quote: "there's only so many ways to wrap a piece of leather around a handgun" That may be true to an extent, but in the 25 years I have been at this professionally, I've managed to come up with quite a few unique ideas of my own. Don't ever use that as an excuse.

Tony

[Drac]

while I've always really like guns my whole life, I never paid much attention to holsters other than does it do the job well for what I was carrying at the time and have only had one leather holster which came with the pistol I had (and still have to this day) as a kid. that being said, once I decided to start trying to make holsters (it's actually how I found this wonderful site), the best advice I got on here for designing them was pretty much "think it through then do it". I thought there was a LOT more to it than that, but there's only a little more, really (type of leather, finish, style and a couple other bits). so, that being said also, all my designs have pretty much come about independently, although I'm sure several have been at the very least subconciously influenced by designs I've seen while not paying direct attention to them (because of this there's no way I'd ever call one my designs "original"). my point being, after all that babbling, is that since there are only so many ways of wrapping leather around a piece of metal (or plastic), many people can come up with the same design independent of one another. however, it's just not right to knowingly copy someone else's design and call it your own.

[Randyc]

I don't know that the guy's reputation was ruined, but I did speak with Bill Wilson and if you peruse the Wilson site, you will note the holster in question is no longer available. Bill didn't have to discontinue that model and I didn't ask him to. That was a decision he made probably based on the fact that Wilson has had enough of his own product designs "borrowed" to have a sympathetic ear to the dilemma.

As far as copying other designs go. As been mentioned by another poster, I don't think it's too much trouble for one maker to give credit to another where credit is due.

Personally, I don't too much care if a maker copies a product of our innovation as long as they at least make an attempt to improve on the design. When Milt first asked Bruce Nelson for permission to make the Summer Special, Milt didn't intend just to copy it. Milt added sight rails and later a second loop which differentiated it quite a bit from the original. Even still we have always given Bruce the recognition as the original designer.

If a maker can't replicate one of our designs without being blatant, or at least give credit, or ask permission. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but they shouldn't ever expect my respect as a peer (not like they would care anyway). I know of two current makers that pretty much owe their entire existence to the innovations of Del Fatti and Sparks. They won't admit to "borrowing", much less give credit, because to do so would be like admitting they have nothing to bring to the table other than what they can steal from the hard work of others. Tis sad, but true.

I would say, be respectful and try to bring something to the table instead of just being content to sit at it. We all have to start somewhere and sometimes it evolves around the ideas of others, but that's no reason to limit yourself and let everyone else do the thinking for you. To quote: "there's only so many ways to wrap a piece of leather around a handgun" That may be true to an extent, but in the 25 years I have been at this professionally, I've managed to come up with quite a few unique ideas of my own. Don't ever use that as an excuse.

Tony

Tony

Very well stated. You and several other contributors to this forum are truly a credit to the custom gun leather business.

Randy

[Bree]

Google has a new Patent Search site in Beta. There aren't a million gun holster patents so you can browse through them fairly easily.

Patent lifespans can be complex. If the patent was applied for after June 7, 1995, the expiration date is 20 years from the filing date. If the filing date was up to June 7, 1995 and issued before June 8, 1978, the patent expires 17 years from issuance. If the filing date is up to June 7, 1995 and issued after June 7, 1978, the expiration is the latter of 17 years from issuance or 20 years from filing. This applies to utility and plant patents. Design patents expire 14 years from the date of issuance.

Here is a more detailed discussion.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/inp03.htm

I was talking to my gunsmith yesterday. He told me that his friend Lou Alessi who has a gunleather business here in the Buffalo area got sued for patent infringement. Apparently, it cost Lou a good bit of money. I think he said that Lou got whacked by Bianchi over paddle holsters. That is not first hand info so take it for what it is worth. But the message is that you can get sued and you can lose!!

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Be careful! Check out the existing patents before you do anything that you aren't certain is not protected.

As far as professional courtesy is concerned... I think that's a great idea and support it. But be aware that in the gun business, people cabbage unprotected designs every day. The new Ruger LCP is a clone of the existing Keltec P3AT... and Keltec cabbaged their design from someone else! All the 1911's are cabbaged from John Moses Browning's original design. So there is nothing new about gracing an unprotected design with the compliment of copying it! Some might say that as a matter of principle one should never innovate when you can steal what works for someone else!!

[okiwen]

I am adding to this old thread as a thank you to all that gave thier opinion. I have reread it with great interest as to the posters themselves. I have had a very busy summer so little had been pursued, but the continual reminder at work that I have not filled their needs brings me back around to these holsters.

I will continue to pursue the "original" holster I believe forever, but I do have to admit, there are a lot of really good makers out there. I can't help but learn from them and have it show in what I do myself. Just like the man that I am learning to make saddles from. If he teaches me something and I use it in my saddle am I copying from him? I would hope so just a bit as he is very good.

In that vain, I have researched this site for all the pattern making tips I can find to improve my making skills. (do you know how many pages I had to go through?) I think that the real "tips" should be collected into one sticky for easy access. The 'rules' of a good pattern if you will.

Thanks again to all.

Kevin

[Shorts]

I'm just running through threads for new insights. I wanted to bump this one.

I've been thinking regularly about "improving on ideas". We grow stagnate of we only reproduce what is already available. I'm taking it as a personal challenge to myself to look for improvements on my items for function and originality. I must say, it is a challenge. But it's something I'm looking forward to. The reward is worth the work :D