Blue Gun Swap?

[Fredo]

I ordered a Blue Gun from Rings. (Ruger LCP). I expect it to get here in the next day or so. Thats a good thing because I have 2 orders for holsters for that gun. Now I'm thinking I'll need to keep buying them for the other more popular guns. However at over 50 bucks per unit to the door it can get pretty expensive for sure.

I'm wondering if any of you would be interested in forming a co-op of sorts? I'm thinking that we coud set up a swap system.

For example if you need a mold for the LCP, I have one that I can loan out. If I need one for say a Glock then someone can loan that out.

Just tossing out ideas here. I'm sure that money flow is an issue for all of us here and it might make for a good way to save a little cash.

Fredo in San Diego.

[Jon Seeley]

This sounds like a great idea. What are your thoughts on how to administer the co-op?

[Fredo]

This sounds like a great idea. What are your thoughts on how to administer the co-op?

Well this is just preliminary however I imagine it would go something like this.

We set up a list of contacts for all interested in joining the co-op.

Then a mass mssg is sent out to the list with something along "I need a gun mold for XYZ gun. I have molds for swap for XYZ guns.

Of course original owners will always get thier molds back . It's a loaner swap, one where I use your mold, you use mine and we return the molds to the original ownner ASAP. Of course we will have to be men and women of our word. trust is a funny thing espacialy when you're talking about the interweb HA!

I'm hoping others will chime in with thoughts and ideas how this might work for everyone involved.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Fredo

[bitone40]

im down . I was just talking to my wife about buying some more just this morning . I need about 4 of them and she asked me if it could wait until after xmas .. i told her no . lol .. wellcount me in , dont forget about shipping ......

[Fredo]

im down . I was just talking to my wife about buying some more just this morning . I need about 4 of them and she asked me if it could wait until after xmas .. i told her no . lol .. wellcount me in , dont forget about shipping ......

Bitone, Im thinking that shipping would be on whoever is shipping at the time. Just to keep it fair. Now say that you have one I need but you dont need mine then I'd be covering shipping both ways.

PS: Your Name "Bitone" is exactly what I'm going to do to my Firestar M40. Frame and slide parked, buttons, trigger and hammer will remain in "starvel" finish.

Two tone guns RULE!

[Rayban]

Put me on the list !

Anyone have a PPS I can "borrow"?

[Dwight]

Just a tip, . . . contact my supplier for all your blue guns.

I shopped the I-net for a couple of days, a few years back to get the best prices.

These are the folks with the best.

They have even had the stuff drop shipped from their supplier, saving me money on the shipping. And because they don't have it today, . . . doesn't mean that they cannot get it shipped to you tomorrow.

They are a 1st class organization in my book.

May God bless,

Dwight

Contact: www.letargets.com

[Fredo]

Dwight, Thank You!

[Lobo]

This topic comes up from time to time. I have my doubts about a co-op approach working out. In order to ensure that the person using someone else's dummy gun will return it promptly and in undamaged condition, a deposit (equal to or greater than replacement cost) will have to be required. Postage costs can be expected to be about $4.00 (first class) to $6.00 (priority mail) for each trip; add delivery confirmation fees (undoubtedly, someone will claim--truly or falsely-- that they never received a shipment) and/or insurance, and you're up to around $6.00 to $8.00 every time a dummy goes into the mail. Realistically, this means $12.00 to $16.00 for each loan-out, or about 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of the dummy gun. And that gives no consideration to the time needed to package, address, and mail each parcel.

How long is the "borrowing" period? A week? Ten days? Better start thinking about late fees, just like the public library charges. Add in some time for corresponding with each co-op member, scheduling, re-scheduling, etc. Factor in some costs for aspirin, because you're probably going to have a lot of headaches.

How about a high-demand piece? Several co-op members want it, so you schedule delivery to "A", who keeps it for a week then sends it on to "B", who uses it then sends it on to "C", who uses it and sends it back to the owner. When the owner receives it back the front sight is broken off, the trigger guard has been crushed in someone's holster press, or the left side has been melted in someone's drying cabinet or convection oven. Everybody denies responsibility, so what happens next? Who gets to bite the bullet?

I can imagine another dozen sad scenarios, any one of which can just about be guaranteed to happen, the only real question is when.

Professional mechanics do not lend out their tools for a reason; they rely upon those tools for their living. The same is true of carpenters, roofers, surgeons, barbers, and others.

For the hobbyist making an occasional holster for someone else the much simpler solution is to use the customer's handgun for patterning and forming that order. Do you have a good safe to keep it in? How about insurance that will cover property of others involved in a business transaction? If you can't answer "yes" to both of these questions, I recommend having the customer bring the weapon to you for patterning, then bring it again for forming, and taking it home in between.

For the full-time or part-time holster maker in business the answer is to purchase those pieces for which there is sufficient demand to justify the expense. Dummy guns typically cost around $50.00 delivered, so the first order should recover the expense and that piece will remain as part of the maker's inventory, ready to generate profit indefinitely.

Personally, after having purchased dozens of dummies I have decided to just buy the real guns whenever possible. If I can't use it at least ten times per year I really don't need it; if I use it ten times in the first year it has paid for itself. The cost is a tax-deductible business expense, and the gun will retain its value indefinitely (or increase in value over time). Essentially, the guns become a part of my retirement fund, and very few investments have grown in value over the past 30 years as much as good quality firearms.

I always try to encourage people to pursue their dreams and goals. But I also encourage people to stay in touch with reality. Whatever you are doing is either a hobby or it is a business. The goal of a hobby is personal gratification. The goal of business is profit. In either case, loaning and borrowing tools is likely to defeat the intended goal.

Best regards.

[Rayban]

So you don't want on the list, right Lobo??

[Lobo]

Just a tip, . . . contact my supplier for all your blue guns.

I shopped the I-net for a couple of days, a few years back to get the best prices.

These are the folks with the best.

They have even had the stuff drop shipped from their supplier, saving me money on the shipping. And because they don't have it today, . . . doesn't mean that they cannot get it shipped to you tomorrow.

They are a 1st class organization in my book.

May God bless,

Dwight

Contact: www.letargets.com

Just about all of the distributors of dummy guns are drop-shippers, taking orders and collecting payments, then having Ring's or other manufacturers make and ship the piece. Very few maintain any inventory to speak of. In order to qualify as a distributor and receive wholesale pricing, the manufacturers will require a minimum order, typically $10,000 to $20,000. Such investments will bring a lot of products, but then the distributor has to warehouse, inventory, advertise, sell, and deliver them over a period of time to recover the investment and (hopefully) generate a little profit. Maybe everything will sell, maybe not. The reality of retail marketing includes the likelihood that a portion of everything will eventually have to be sold off at a loss just to clear it out (not to mention losses to theft, shoplifting, etc).

When I contact Ring's or Duncan's directly I will get a pretty good idea of when my order will be produced and delivered, allowing me to advise the customer of an estimated production time for each order. The customer can then decide whether or not to proceed.

The dummy makers know that they have a lock on the market, and that the market is relatively limited. They know that they can sell a few at high profit, or a few more at low profit.

When John Bianchi retired and sold Bianchi International I have heard that he had produced over 40,000,000 products. That is pretty impressive, to say the least. But, Mr. Bianchi pursued a business plan that emphasized wholesale sales to franchised dealers and high-volume outlets, and "floor-plans" that allowed dealers to receive bulk deliveries for in-stock inventory, with payments made over time as the products were sold. Bianchi International's per-unit profit was considerably less than the difference between production cost and retail prices, and I'm sure that they sustained significant losses in some dealings with retailers and distributors. Their approach was volume, with a more modest per-unit profit spread over many orders.

Such is not the case for the makers of dummy guns. Their products are in demand only for training of law enforcement and security professionals, with holster-makers being essentially a spin-off market. There is no general public demand for these products, so there is no reason for mass marketing, wholesale production, etc.

Mr. Bianchi probably had little difficulty in acquiring a specimen piece of every new handgun brought to market. I suspect that he also had arrangements in place to have dummies made by the dozens, or by the hundreds, as his production plans required.

The simple facts are that most holster-makers will continue purchasing a dummy here, maybe a couple of dummies there, frequently waiting for their orders to be produced (after larger orders and more frequent customers, of course), and paying the going prices for what we need.

Best regards.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Lobo

[Lobo]

So you don't want on the list, right Lobo??

No, thanks, Rayban. I also prefer to avoid train wrecks, automobile accidents, and airplane crashes:rolleyes: whenever possible. I know these will continue to occur, with me or without me.

Best regards.

[Shorts]

Actually Lobo has typed out quite a bit of information that should be considered for this type of exchange. No one else up there vocalized any specifics.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. While I think that may be an extreme description, it's not off target.

You can't create a good business plan without discussing the pros and cons of said plan.

And no, I don't want in on this plan. While it's an interesting idea, I don't think it has the legs. Someone will have to oversee the entire setup or else things will get very confusing.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Shorts

[Mark Garrity]

I'm with Lobo and Monica on this. I just see too much potential for things to go wrong, especially the more people that are involved. Lobo is correct in that one holster should pay for the mold gun. I generally don't even order a new mold gun until I have received 5 orders for that particular pistol, and even though I don't take payment until a holster is completed, I know the dummy gun is essentially going to be paid for 5 times over when I order it. And even doing things this way I have amassed a collection of a couple hundred dummy guns over the years. It is definatley tough to keep up with due to the gun manufacturers constantly coming out with new models, or making slight variations to existing models that effect holster fit. (Sig just did this with their P250 and P2022, changing the rails from a rounded frame to flat: and every manufacturer's railed 1911 is slightly different so the holster must be manufacturer specific). I have joked with other holster-makers that I think the gun manufacturers do this just to keep holster-makers on our toes (or piss us off and make life difficult). Due to this, and the fact that you simply cannot own everything, myself and another local maker have traded dummy guns back and forth on occassion, and even being within short driving distance there are times when we are calling or texting one another saying "Are you done with it? I need it back!" So I can just imagine how doing things through the mail would be if the borrower didn't get to the project when intended, ran into a prduction issue and had to start over delaying things, etc.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Mark Garrity

[Fredo]

Thanks to everyone for Their input.

After reading posts by LOBO, SHORTS and MARK I got the information I realy need. This may seem like a good idea but when lobo decided to toss facts and logic into the mix I had to rethink the swap idea.

Turns out that I have experienced a lot of the issues simply dealing with freinds on motorcycle parts and tools. I can imagine how fast things can go south when dealing with a mail system that can be iffy at best.

I have a bad habbit of takinge people at their word so I ignored the possible negitive aspects of such a co-op. That habbit has cost me in the past.

I am not saying anyone reading this would be one to mess up the deal, but it can and has happened before.

So with that said I'm out. I hope I didnt get too many folks spun up.

[rickybobby]

I ordered a Blue Gun from Rings. (Ruger LCP). I expect it to get here in the next day or so. Thats a good thing because I have 2 orders for holsters for that gun. Now I'm thinking I'll need to keep buying them for the other more popular guns. However at over 50 bucks per unit to the door it can get pretty expensive for sure.

I'm wondering if any of you would be interested in forming a co-op of sorts? I'm thinking that we coud set up a swap system.

For example if you need a mold for the LCP, I have one that I can loan out. If I need one for say a Glock then someone can loan that out.

Just tossing out ideas here. I'm sure that money flow is an issue for all of us here and it might make for a good way to save a little cash.

Fredo in San Diego.

Fredo,

I ran this up the leather flag pole a couple years ago. http://leatherworker.net/entry112806 At that point I was doing leatherwork as "part hobby, part make some money" and thought this would make the pain of blue gun expense less. Some of the "holster pro's" had some very good feedback and pointed out flaws that could occur in the system.

I now am doing leather work for a living and see the flaws much clearer. #1. Someone else has the one I need right now, they are not available to send it back because (insert excuse here) #2. Cost of shipping. At 8 to 10 dollars each way ($16.00 / $20.00 total cost) you are well on your way to buying it. #3. Would you loan your major tool for earning a living to someone else (and mail it to them? and expect it back the day you need it?).

As stated many times here by Ray (Lobo Gunleather) the blue guns pay for themselves. When I buy a Blue Gun I make several holsters right away. I have those for sale and when you post those for sale or tell people you have them RIGHT NOW for them they sell really fast, paying for your blue gun and the materials, now you have the funds for another blue gun, start the process all over again.

I have done this ( I buy a couple at a time ) and start making holsters to pay for them. I know this is hard to do as a hobbyist but I remember how hard it was to buy a "whole side of leather" for the first time, now I cannot buy the amount of sides I need all at once! The leather items you make should at least pay for the materials and tools you need to grow.

Any time you involve a community of folks to share something (like the blue guns) you have to expect slow delivery times, damage to the guns, and stress for no return in $$$$. I think a couple of people that live in the same town/area may be able to share a tool like this but for me, after a lot of studying of this as a business or even a nonprofit service (just pay for itself) for a group it does not make sense.

Building your tools for this hobby/business is an expensive onetime outlay of money, but when done systematically it eases the costs and your collection will build quickly. Every tool you buy should make you money as your talents expand.

I hope this helps,

Rick J.

[hivemind]

Not for nothing, but have you guys considered using airsoft pistols for your molds?

[Mark Garrity]

Not for nothing, but have you guys considered using airsoft pistols for your molds?

I know my hydraulic press, (and I'm sure most of the presses that others making holsters as a business use), would crush an airsoft pistol. I won't even put a polymer framed real gun in my press.

[hivemind]

Ahh, I see, I had assumed you guys just wet molded the leather by hand, in which case a $20 airsoft pistol should be fine. I now understand the need for the solid nylon guns.

[Rayban]

Ahh, I see, I had assumed you guys just wet molded the leather by hand, in which case a $20 airsoft pistol should be fine. I now understand the need for the solid nylon guns.

I know nothing bout airsoft pistols, do they come in all models? Are they pricey? I wet mold by hand.

[hivemind]

Here's a small sampling form one retailer, most are $20. There's dozens of retailers. http://www.shortyusa.com/cart/index.html?UID=1133105053-69.169.173.79&RID=1&NL=&kiosk=

You want to look at spring pistols, not gas or electric, because springers will be cheap. Sizes are pretty damned close, if not exact. I can't tell the difference between my airsoft Glock 17 and a real Glock 17.

On the other hand, Botach has blue guns for $36 each, that doesn't seem like a terrible price for a pattern: http://www.botachtactical.com/blueguns.html

[Shorts]

Ahh, I see, I had assumed you guys just wet molded the leather by hand, in which case a $20 airsoft pistol should be fine. I now understand the need for the solid nylon guns.

Some do, some don't. We don't all prescribe to the same methods.

Airsofts would work fine of they were up to spec of the real thing.

[Shooter McGavin]

I'd like to rent or borrow a M&P 9/40 full size dummy gun if anyone has one their willing to part with for a week.

Thanks