Blue Gun Swap?

[Lobo]

Just a tip, . . . contact my supplier for all your blue guns.

I shopped the I-net for a couple of days, a few years back to get the best prices.

These are the folks with the best.

They have even had the stuff drop shipped from their supplier, saving me money on the shipping. And because they don't have it today, . . . doesn't mean that they cannot get it shipped to you tomorrow.

They are a 1st class organization in my book.

May God bless,

Dwight

Contact: www.letargets.com

Just about all of the distributors of dummy guns are drop-shippers, taking orders and collecting payments, then having Ring's or other manufacturers make and ship the piece. Very few maintain any inventory to speak of. In order to qualify as a distributor and receive wholesale pricing, the manufacturers will require a minimum order, typically $10,000 to $20,000. Such investments will bring a lot of products, but then the distributor has to warehouse, inventory, advertise, sell, and deliver them over a period of time to recover the investment and (hopefully) generate a little profit. Maybe everything will sell, maybe not. The reality of retail marketing includes the likelihood that a portion of everything will eventually have to be sold off at a loss just to clear it out (not to mention losses to theft, shoplifting, etc).

When I contact Ring's or Duncan's directly I will get a pretty good idea of when my order will be produced and delivered, allowing me to advise the customer of an estimated production time for each order. The customer can then decide whether or not to proceed.

The dummy makers know that they have a lock on the market, and that the market is relatively limited. They know that they can sell a few at high profit, or a few more at low profit.

When John Bianchi retired and sold Bianchi International I have heard that he had produced over 40,000,000 products. That is pretty impressive, to say the least. But, Mr. Bianchi pursued a business plan that emphasized wholesale sales to franchised dealers and high-volume outlets, and "floor-plans" that allowed dealers to receive bulk deliveries for in-stock inventory, with payments made over time as the products were sold. Bianchi International's per-unit profit was considerably less than the difference between production cost and retail prices, and I'm sure that they sustained significant losses in some dealings with retailers and distributors. Their approach was volume, with a more modest per-unit profit spread over many orders.

Such is not the case for the makers of dummy guns. Their products are in demand only for training of law enforcement and security professionals, with holster-makers being essentially a spin-off market. There is no general public demand for these products, so there is no reason for mass marketing, wholesale production, etc.

Mr. Bianchi probably had little difficulty in acquiring a specimen piece of every new handgun brought to market. I suspect that he also had arrangements in place to have dummies made by the dozens, or by the hundreds, as his production plans required.

The simple facts are that most holster-makers will continue purchasing a dummy here, maybe a couple of dummies there, frequently waiting for their orders to be produced (after larger orders and more frequent customers, of course), and paying the going prices for what we need.

Best regards.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Lobo

[Lobo]

So you don't want on the list, right Lobo??

No, thanks, Rayban. I also prefer to avoid train wrecks, automobile accidents, and airplane crashes:rolleyes: whenever possible. I know these will continue to occur, with me or without me.

Best regards.

[Shorts]

Actually Lobo has typed out quite a bit of information that should be considered for this type of exchange. No one else up there vocalized any specifics.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. While I think that may be an extreme description, it's not off target.

You can't create a good business plan without discussing the pros and cons of said plan.

And no, I don't want in on this plan. While it's an interesting idea, I don't think it has the legs. Someone will have to oversee the entire setup or else things will get very confusing.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Shorts

[Mark Garrity]

I'm with Lobo and Monica on this. I just see too much potential for things to go wrong, especially the more people that are involved. Lobo is correct in that one holster should pay for the mold gun. I generally don't even order a new mold gun until I have received 5 orders for that particular pistol, and even though I don't take payment until a holster is completed, I know the dummy gun is essentially going to be paid for 5 times over when I order it. And even doing things this way I have amassed a collection of a couple hundred dummy guns over the years. It is definatley tough to keep up with due to the gun manufacturers constantly coming out with new models, or making slight variations to existing models that effect holster fit. (Sig just did this with their P250 and P2022, changing the rails from a rounded frame to flat: and every manufacturer's railed 1911 is slightly different so the holster must be manufacturer specific). I have joked with other holster-makers that I think the gun manufacturers do this just to keep holster-makers on our toes (or piss us off and make life difficult). Due to this, and the fact that you simply cannot own everything, myself and another local maker have traded dummy guns back and forth on occassion, and even being within short driving distance there are times when we are calling or texting one another saying "Are you done with it? I need it back!" So I can just imagine how doing things through the mail would be if the borrower didn't get to the project when intended, ran into a prduction issue and had to start over delaying things, etc.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Mark Garrity

[Fredo]

Thanks to everyone for Their input.

After reading posts by LOBO, SHORTS and MARK I got the information I realy need. This may seem like a good idea but when lobo decided to toss facts and logic into the mix I had to rethink the swap idea.

Turns out that I have experienced a lot of the issues simply dealing with freinds on motorcycle parts and tools. I can imagine how fast things can go south when dealing with a mail system that can be iffy at best.

I have a bad habbit of takinge people at their word so I ignored the possible negitive aspects of such a co-op. That habbit has cost me in the past.

I am not saying anyone reading this would be one to mess up the deal, but it can and has happened before.

So with that said I'm out. I hope I didnt get too many folks spun up.

[rickybobby]

I ordered a Blue Gun from Rings. (Ruger LCP). I expect it to get here in the next day or so. Thats a good thing because I have 2 orders for holsters for that gun. Now I'm thinking I'll need to keep buying them for the other more popular guns. However at over 50 bucks per unit to the door it can get pretty expensive for sure.

I'm wondering if any of you would be interested in forming a co-op of sorts? I'm thinking that we coud set up a swap system.

For example if you need a mold for the LCP, I have one that I can loan out. If I need one for say a Glock then someone can loan that out.

Just tossing out ideas here. I'm sure that money flow is an issue for all of us here and it might make for a good way to save a little cash.

Fredo in San Diego.

Fredo,

I ran this up the leather flag pole a couple years ago. http://leatherworker.net/entry112806 At that point I was doing leatherwork as "part hobby, part make some money" and thought this would make the pain of blue gun expense less. Some of the "holster pro's" had some very good feedback and pointed out flaws that could occur in the system.

I now am doing leather work for a living and see the flaws much clearer. #1. Someone else has the one I need right now, they are not available to send it back because (insert excuse here) #2. Cost of shipping. At 8 to 10 dollars each way ($16.00 / $20.00 total cost) you are well on your way to buying it. #3. Would you loan your major tool for earning a living to someone else (and mail it to them? and expect it back the day you need it?).

As stated many times here by Ray (Lobo Gunleather) the blue guns pay for themselves. When I buy a Blue Gun I make several holsters right away. I have those for sale and when you post those for sale or tell people you have them RIGHT NOW for them they sell really fast, paying for your blue gun and the materials, now you have the funds for another blue gun, start the process all over again.

I have done this ( I buy a couple at a time ) and start making holsters to pay for them. I know this is hard to do as a hobbyist but I remember how hard it was to buy a "whole side of leather" for the first time, now I cannot buy the amount of sides I need all at once! The leather items you make should at least pay for the materials and tools you need to grow.

Any time you involve a community of folks to share something (like the blue guns) you have to expect slow delivery times, damage to the guns, and stress for no return in $$$$. I think a couple of people that live in the same town/area may be able to share a tool like this but for me, after a lot of studying of this as a business or even a nonprofit service (just pay for itself) for a group it does not make sense.

Building your tools for this hobby/business is an expensive onetime outlay of money, but when done systematically it eases the costs and your collection will build quickly. Every tool you buy should make you money as your talents expand.

I hope this helps,

Rick J.

[hivemind]

Not for nothing, but have you guys considered using airsoft pistols for your molds?

[Mark Garrity]

Not for nothing, but have you guys considered using airsoft pistols for your molds?

I know my hydraulic press, (and I'm sure most of the presses that others making holsters as a business use), would crush an airsoft pistol. I won't even put a polymer framed real gun in my press.

[hivemind]

Ahh, I see, I had assumed you guys just wet molded the leather by hand, in which case a $20 airsoft pistol should be fine. I now understand the need for the solid nylon guns.

[Rayban]

Ahh, I see, I had assumed you guys just wet molded the leather by hand, in which case a $20 airsoft pistol should be fine. I now understand the need for the solid nylon guns.

I know nothing bout airsoft pistols, do they come in all models? Are they pricey? I wet mold by hand.