Position of Rider on a Horse

[Blake]

The pictures are interesting especially B & C Where the horse is standing too far under itself exaggerating the hip. Picture A is just the opposite, The horse is well behind itself. The horse appears to have some issues other than where the rider is sitting.

David you need to clarify what you are saying and maybe give us some of the professional pictures that you use when you do your clinics and presentations. Its hard to grasp what you are trying to say or show everyone with the bits and pieces and antique art.

It might also help if you furnished us with your background as a Horseman.

I think everyone here is trying to understand if you can be a little more clear.

Kind Regards

Blake

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Greg has a very good point in that the stirrups carry a decent percentage of weight from the ball of the rider's foot, ahead of the heel/hip/shoulder line that runs through the rider's "contact area". (Is that a politically correct enough term for butt?) In any case, it is important to remember that the weight of the rider is distributed over the entire surface of the bar that is in contact with the horse. This is the purpose of having a tree in a saddle in the first place. It is different than riding bareback where the weight is concentrated right under the rider.

Rod

[Alan Bell]

Once again I'm on the road, (D.C., Va., and Fl.) and missed the first parts of this discussion but wanted to add what I've found. "I wouldn't choose A as my choice to sit on a horse because it's putting all the weight he's carrying on the front end, the smoothest gaited horse will ride rough and have no choice but to learn to work on his front end, there goes any caliber of an actual stop and a horse couldn't rein very well when his front end is too heavy to get off his front feet and work on his butt. The result of riding a horse that far forward would prevent him from doing the job I need him for, if he stops on his front end and has to walk a circle to turn around he's rendered pretty much useless in a corrall sorting cows." -JRRedding. Not meaning to offend anyone so I'll just say that from what I've learned that is the opposite of what history teaches. The Spanish were the "Supreme" mounted warriors because they could rein their horses and get them to work off their hind ends BETTER than anyone else at the time and this is due in large part to where they sat. The Native Americans out rode the cavalry and you can still see spectacular bareback riding including sliding stops and spins at Crow Fair and the big endurance race the Nez Pierce have each year to testify that sitting over the withers does not impede the horse but rather helps it. It is also why the early California saddles were center fire. How we rope cattle has more to do with the rearward movement of the saddle than horsemanship. And the effects of that rearward, movement and it's relation to roping, has also contributed to the increasing popularity of the slick fork, low horn Wade saddle in recent years. The bigger and bigger swells meant a rider did not have to stay above the withers in order to stay on a horse that was getting a little catty but a slick fork meant the rider had to be "fork-ed" and if you look at Randy Steffens drawings of a ol' time bronc stomper you will see them sitting right over the withers and he points out that that was the benefit of the slick fork. Also the reiners and cutters I've dealt with in the Dallas/Ft Worth area a do not advocate a lot of weight in the stirrups. If you balance with too much weight in the stirrups you are actually RAISING your center of gravity so again your horsemanship suffers. David had me do a little balancing in the saddle and it is the same thing the cutters were trying to get me to do which is center you weight in the saddle and NOT put a lot of weight in the stirrups. Try sitting in a saddle with your weight in the stirrups and have someone push you from behind. You tip over like a tea pot and the more weight you push into the stirrups the easier you tip! Some of the reiners do put a lot of weight in the stirrups but their horses are performing in spite of the handicap which is what good horses do. Our horsemanship evolved out of the Spanish riding tradition including the cattle work but it seems there has been a bit lost in the translation. I know this does nothing to help Jennifer but I wanted to point these things out. A lot of what David says did not make much sense to me at first (I thought he was a kook) but then I got to visit with him in person and got a clearer picture of where he is coming from. His video is pretty good and it is clear to me now that while I've seen and met much better and much worse saddle makers as far as saddle making goes David is trying to understand the biomechanics of the horse anatomy and physiology, the human anatomy and physiology and the interplay between the two which is the totality of horsemanship. He is really doing quite a bit of research and though he may be a bit kooky......he is not a kook!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

... but the stone the builder refused; shall be the head corner stone

Bob Marley - Ride, Natty Ride

[David Genadek]

David,

Looking at the tree pictures here. Do you have one that shows the rock of the bars? At least from the front, looks like a lot of rock. Is this how you get them forward and up over the withers more, by raising the fronts through rock? I can see how that could move the rider forward. If so, doesn't this remove some of the force at the front bar pads, but then concentrates it at the low point of the bow, theoretically where the rider is sitting? Then if someone were to use the horn for more than puling themself up, wouldn't this make the whole affair tip forward and bear down on the scapulas worse. If I am reading something into this that isn't there sorry, but more pictures and where you set these on the horse would help.

Bruce,

I have applied the idea to roping saddles working with PRCA ropers. One thing we did do was to design the tree to accomodate a one inch pad. It seemed to work just fine. One thing I think people over look on roping is that the rear of the bar on the side of the pull is also in play. In the end you have roughly 20 inches of body that can take anything so in my mind the focus should be on trying to get the largest amount of area to take the hit. At this time I don't do a lot team roping saddles mostly ranch saddles and of course that is a different style of roping and I have had no complaints there either. But I will say that this is dependent on the skill of the horseman. One of the people I relie on for feed back is Harry Whitney you can see where he sits on his site.

In the end we as saddle makers need to understand the different schools of horsemanship and understand thier needs. From that point you can specifically target your market. For instance the market I currently target are people seeking the higher levels of horesmanship. My crew builds a mass customized production saddle that is priced between a traditional factory saddle and the custom maker. No matter what market I am in that is the segment I target with what I am doing now. So for me what I want to know is if a rider understands straightness, engagement of the hind quarters and the lifting of the base of the neck then they are a potential client. If they understand these things then how I do things will work for them if not I will seem like a kook.

David Genadek

[David Genadek]

The pictures are interesting especially B & C Where the horse is standing too far under itself exaggerating the hip. Picture A is just the opposite, The horse is well behind itself. The horse appears to have some issues other than where the rider is sitting.

David you need to clarify what you are saying and maybe give us some of the professional pictures that you use when you do your clinics and presentations. Its hard to grasp what you are trying to say or show everyone with the bits and pieces and antique art.

It might also help if you furnished us with your background as a Horseman.

I think everyone here is trying to understand if you can be a little more clear.

Kind Regards

Blake

We used to write letters to Stohlman with saddle making questions and it would always frustrate me because often his answeres would be vague in fact sometimes his answeres would just be more questions. Now I know he did that to get us to think. I realize now that saddle making is not about how but why. I'm not putting this out there for all you old timers but I do want the new people just getting into this to understand that there is more than one perspective.

My perspective of fit is based on anatomy and biomechanics so the best way to understand it is to begin there. Here are some resources that are the basis of my perspective. Principles of Conformation analysis 1,2,3 You can pick these up at almost any tack store. Conquerors which can be had here. Lastly a back issue of Inner Horseman 2002 Theme saddle fit and function which is chocked full of anatomy drawings that pertain to saddle fit such as this: The neat thing about this one is all of it is a direct result of questions I asked about saddle fitting. There are layer by layer drawings of the anatomy as it relates to saddle fit. That along with the others can be found at the above link.

David Genadek

[Denise]

David,Thank you for the information you have given us so far. Since I am a visual learner, I am still very interested to see pictures of your trees so we can see the underside a bit better and where you place them on a horse. That would help immensely in understanding your words. Thank you.

Some comments on information presented in previous posts:

Historically saddles have been further forward than what is happening today.

Here is a link to a very interesting site David pointed us to a while back. http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreak...eatHistory.html

It shows that throughout history the rider's position has ranged anywhere from over the hips to the base of the neck. Just because something has been done it the past doesn't mean it is wise to repeat it.

the red area has only one muscle to help stabalize the spine so it is the weakest part of the back.

While vet school has been more years ago than I care to mention and I would never claim to be an expert in anatomy, I would like to point out that the muscles surrounding the lumbar spine include: (Note, all these names have one muscle body one each side of the spine.)

Under the transverse processes – the psoas major, the psoas minor and the quadratus lumborum

Above the transverse processes – the longissimus dorsi, the middle gluteal, which starts about L2 and goes back, and the multifidus dorsi.

Some of these are large diameter muscles and the musculature around the lumbar spine is much more substantial than along the thorax where the ribs help support the trunk. So where there are no ribs, there is more muscle. And, as elsewhere in the spine, the vertebrae are well connected with a complicated system of ligaments.I find it interesting that the earliest pictures of people riding as shown on the above site have them seated right over the hips. Anatomically, this would be the strongest place for the horse to carry weight since the spine is directly connected to the leg – bones connected to bones. The forelimbs of the horse, and every other mammal I can currently think of with the exceptions of humans and primates, are not connected by bone but only by muscle. (It is the collarbone, or clavicle, which is the connecting bone when it is present and active.) So while the lumbar spine is not supported by ribs, it is much closer to a solid base of support – the pelvis – than the forelimbs which essentially hold up the front end of an animal in a sling of muscle. I am not trying to make a statement here as to where the horse is best able to carry and move with the weight of a rider. I wouldn't want to ride on a horse's hips. I am only pointing out anatomical facts.

In this thread http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=901 is this quote where David Genadek made reference to his source of information.

I'm not an expert on anatomy or equine biomaechanics but I have worked with an internationally respected expert in this area for many years.

I am assuming, David, that you are referring here to Dr. Deb Bennet whose works you are citing in your last post. On her website one of the articles in the "information" section is called "Woody". Here is a link to it. http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/woody.html

In it, under the 13th heading labeled "The Righting Reflex", she states "The shoulders are more independent in a horse than in, for example, a cat or a dog, because cats and dogs have collarbones and horses don't. This gives horses an ability to lean - to go crooked - which cats or dogs don't have." While it is true that cats do have tiny collarbones that are occasionally large enough to show up on X-ray, they are imbedded in the brachiocephalicus muscle and do not connect to the skeleton. None of our other domestic mammals have collarbones. As well, while cats will right themselves as they fall if they have enough space, dogs will not. I doubt that this research has been tried with horses. Extrapolating between species as is done in this article is a dangerous business because while some principles hold true, others don't. It is errors like these that make me question the credibility of other conclusions drawn by this author.

Denise Nikkel DVM

[Blake]

Hello David

I appreciate what you are trying to say but You don't need to play head games or talk down to people to avoid answering honest questions by referring to someone that tried to make you think. I pretty much think that all of us "Old Timers" can be open minded to learning new ways. Thats how we got to be Old Timers instead of falling by the wayside.

I'm afraid that your credibility is headed down the tubes unless you can show everyone what they have asked of you. You need to post pictures of your tree as Bruce requested showing what is so different about it and how it sits on a healthy horse along with an explanation of the dynamics when it is being ridden.

If we have been doing it so wrong for such a long time then I for one would like to see how it is supposed to be and why.

I have a few books on equine anatomy and have a decent understanding of the muscle structure so adding links to more pictures still doesn't directly answer any questions that you have been asked.

Regards

Blake

[greg gomersall]

When you sit ON a saddle you concentrate the bulk of your weight towards the back of the saddle, the rear bar tips are not far from the lumbar vertabrae & kidneys. Wrong spot for weight.

When you sit IN a saddle you are distributing your weight between the stirrups and the seat. This is the only way you can balance with any stability. Besides the fact that if your horse farts and jumps sideways you have a better chance of not falling off.

Reference was made to the old bronc twisters being up over the withers of thier horses to ride them. If you study the drawings of Will James, Jo Mora & Ernie Morris (very accurate drawings) you will notice as the bronc is going up they are out over the front of the horse but as the bronc starts to come down the riders are not over the front anymore. I wonder why? My experiance has been if I'm leaning ahead when them front feet hit the ground I'm next!

Alan you also stated the center-fire rigs of old sat farther forward on the horses allowing the rider to be over his horses front end more. This is not so, the center-fire rigs sat on the same spot ( just behind the scapula) as today's saddles do. On these old center-fire kahk's they used cinches that were 6 to 8 inches wide to keep them in place. A properly fitting saddle tree will go to where it wants to be on a horse's back, rigging placement will either keep it in this position or hinder it's getting there.

David I am not trying to pick a fight with you but I dang sure disagree with some of the things you are saying. My offer to try one of your trees myself is still open if you would be willing. Heck it could change my outlook on the subject.

A few years ago Eclectic Horseman magazine published a series of 3 articles by Chuck Stormes on Trees, Rigging and Groundseats. I encourage all aspiring saddlemakers and horseman to read these articles. Maybe someone more computer savy than myself could post a link

Greg

[Johanna]

Chuck Stormes in The Eclectic Horseman

The Tree

The Seat

The Rigging

[bruce johnson]

David,

I would like to see how these trees fit on a horse. Perhaps it does work on a rider improving their horsemanship. However a guy who catches cattle for a living I think is going to have issues unless it is way different than I envision. First off, the PRCA guys are riding whoever their sponsor is - Cactus or whatever, a Billy Hogg, Tod Slone, or paying dearly for an old Howard Council. Proper horsemanship and raising the neck are the last things in their mind. They use tie downs and over and under to engage the hindquarters. I am thinking that when they reach out and stick one, they are out over the front, and the jerk is minimal now that they fade their cattle instead of set them. The jerk is forward and maybe to the side as they face. The heelers and the calf horses are getting a pretty much forward jerk. If these front bars are looking like what I envision they do, that takes a heck of a back cinch to keep them from tipping down. As far as ranch roping, it all depends on the cowboy, the horse, and the crew. Big cattle and green horses, and those calves can be hopping all over in front, beside, and behind. I think that constant pull and little jerks and more work than a rodeo run is harder on a ranch horse than a rodeo horse. The rodeo horse is set for it, the ranch horse is trying to get somewhere while all this is going on.

Regarding the cutting horses. These guys are probably for the most part your brida riders. They have their feet in front ususally, and are pushing on that saddle horn to stay back. They are defintiely not up over the withers with their cracker butts in a 16-1/2" Cajun. I think a 200# non-pro being tossed forward and bracing up on the horn sticking up there is putting some force on that horn too. Probably more forward than the more downward jerk of a rope. I am not sure how those forces would factor out with vectors. The reiners in their Don Leson's or Bob's are not up over the withers either. I just have to think that most of the top horses have either really compensated for all of our mistakes, or that their are a couple ways to skin this cat.

These folks are all loading their stirrups to some degree, as were the conqistadors and the dressage riders. Not to the same degree in each event and not the same throughout each movement. Not many people are sitting their like the proverbial sack of spuds while they are changing leads, doing transitions, or trying to stay in the buggy while their mount is turning a cow on the fence, or trying not to get bucked off. These are the people most of us have targeted in our businesses.