Position of Rider on a Horse

[Alan Bell]

Since I still am not at home I asked a horseman that I know, Roeliff Annon, to do the same experiment that Greg did. He did it in a saddle I made for him on a Warren Wright tree and one made by Steve Mecum a while back. (Greg you might know who was making Steve's trees say 10 yrs ago?) Any ways he said he was sitting at "B" or between "A" and "B" and added later on in the day that he felt that being in that position AIDED in collecting the horse and allowing the horse to lighten its forehand. He did not think a person wanting elevation would want to sit at "A" as he felt it was an extreme. He is a well versed horseman and his horses are lighter in the front end than some of the big name reining trainers horses that I have ridden. At any rate that says that there are other trees out there that will put the rider in the "desired" position. He also agreed that maybe some production saddles have you sitting between "B" and C" but probably not all the way back at "C". Greg also mentioned the "low spot" that the saddle maker can put into his ground seat work and how that affects where the position of the rider is on the horse. Ben he was also riding Brislawn horses. He's got quite a few breeds to chose from Spanish Mustang to QH's to Peruvian Paso to BLM stock. I also have to admit I would like to see what Greg would think of one of David's saddles or saddle trees. I know Greg to be a straight up person. Honest as the day is long in my doings with him and one that has also spent much time, effort and money LEARNING the craft of saddle making. I consider him one of the future top saddle makers in North America. (and i'm not alone) He is a Horseman and he knows what it means to be called a Horseman.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

the sun shall not smite I by day: nor the moon by night! And every word that I say shall be up full and right!

Bob Marley- Night Shift

[Yonatan]

I'm with Greg on Chuck Stormes' study. I suspect the old time California seat

reflects the fact that the vaqueros, "los viejos", rode a balance between "a la

jinete" and "a la brida". Like Mr Redding was saying, you ride the rough country,

and work horseback, you need to adjust to reality, as opposed to getting too

theoretical. It's unnatural to force only kind of seat, unless you're riding in an

arena, and sticking to one discipline, or one sport event. There are times when

sitting forward will send you flying. And there are times when you move your

weight forward and over the withers if you care about your horse, like when

you've got to scramble up a steep canyon wall. The kind of seat that Stormes

is talking about will set you up for both jinete and brida modes. I also agree with

Alan's observation about the way a California slick fork helps you keep the jinete

mode. But I'd just add this: the slick fork helps me make the transitions I need,

both forward AND back. Another observation relates to something Alan said on

another post, maybe at another forum too--it has to do with dish. The newer

deeper dished cantle styles can get you stuck. The older style shovel and spades

(I find) go together with the center seat for that subtle shift a rider needs to

make, forward and back, in various situations and conditions. I find that the

shallow dish keeps my tail bone tucked in, right where I need it, as opposed to

sunk back too deeply toward the cantle. Anyway, flowing between jinete and

brida is where it's at for me. I don't like too much rise ahead, or too deep a dish

behind. It's a matter of instinct and feel, and having the freedom to move with

the horse's action, and the job at hand.

[greg gomersall]

Alan I am not sure who's tree Steve was using 10 years ago but I believe Rick Reed is who he uses now. There are lots of good tree makers building trees that will allow the maker to put in the kind of seat that will allow the rider to work with his horse more easily. A few are as you mentioned Warren Wright, Rick Reed, Rod Nikkel, Ben Swanke, Severe's, Glenn Christman, Bill Bean, Jay Mawson, Dennis Lane, J. Watt. and the list goes on and on(I apoligize to those not mentioned). It is still up to the maker to do the seat correctly but having the top side of the tree properly shaped before you start helps. We have access to more quality tree makers now than we have had at anytime in history.

Being able to use the gear yourself helps one understand the fit function and form aspect of making the gear a little easier in my opinion. Greg

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Yonatan, I think that you've put into words what alot of us feel... trying to find a balance between the three seat positions that allows somebody working in a variety of conditions and performing many different tasks to be able to move in the seat that gives them the best comfort, balance, and security. I have posted a bunch of photos below showing some seat shapes from Visalia and Hamley's (these are just a sampling from the two companies... both makers had seat shapes that changed quite drastically over the years) and a couple of my own, there is a clearly visible difference of where the rider was intended to sit... is one right or wrong? I guess we all have to be our own judge of where we want our customers sitting. For myself, I like a seat similar to what Yonatan described which gives you some freedom to move forward and back from the low spot, to the position that suits the task at hand. As Ben mentioned, different horses may have different requirements and having the flexibility to adapt is most important to me.

I'd also be curious to hear anyone's opinion on how seat length affects rider position.

Darc

[Yonatan]

Darc,

Thanks for taking the effort to post those fine photos. In response to your question about

seat length and the rider's position, it's my understanding that once the modern seat came into being, say around the 1920s, the seats got longer. That high rise up front, together with the lower deep dish cantle, made the greater seat length necessary. Sit one of those older saddles in the photos you posted and you just might find you can go with a shorter seat. As I said before, I go for the old time seat, the kind Stormes is advocating. The low point is about 3/4 down from the fork, but it's subtle, like the Loomis saddle he's got in his article. I like the cantle shallow dished, shovel or spade, so I don't sink back. It keeps me in balance for natural movement and shifting weight. I ride from the seat. I don't need the room to slide back and forth. It's my weight that moves front and back, not really my body. The slick fork gives me the freedom I need. And no buck rolls for me. No double rig either. Staying centered gives me all the security I need. The only time I feel that cantle is

a slight contact, just a reminder that it's there. Same holds true up front in a narrow Visalia tree, or a McClellan. The fork on a Visalia is angled higher than it is on a Wade, and that's what I like. Just the hint of the fork rising gives my inner thighs what I need, even in steep country. If my seat was more fashionably long I'd lose that feel. So I've learned to trust a slightly shorter seat, as long as I'm riding the kind of seat I've described. In fact, it's just this feel that drove me to making my own gear, from a - z. I can't afford to wait for years and pay alot of money I don't have for another rig that just doesn't have it. It's not a padded seat, or a longer seat, that makes for comfort. It's a "just right" seat, a correct seat that does it for me.

Yonatan

[Tosch]

In this thread http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=2760 David posted a link to a forum where he explains and discusses his preferred seat incl. some pdf files with interesting drawings and explanations he did not post here. ((Quote: Here is a link to another forum where this point is being discussed end of Quote )) You have to register to the forum and (a few days ago) have to read through 8 pages...I think it might be worth doing it for people really interested although it had been nice if David had given a summary here. In one pdf it is advised to line up the front of the gullet with the high part of the withers. Otherwise (my interpretation) you could not get the rider to sit in position A. Thus the front of the bars go over the shoulder (blades), which is the reason (my interpretation) the front of the bars are (extremely) flared out "to free horse's shoulders" http://www.aboutthehorse.com/web/trees.shtml . So that -assumingly - the bars do not touch the shoulder blades but provide a structure for the seat to be placed this far forward. In one of the (pre-crash??, cannot find it anymore) threads about trees for the spanish mustangs were pics with SM with David's saddle on them , and some people commented the saddle sits up way too high, exactly that is the right position in this line of thinking.

I attach some of the pdfs (if it works) which are published in the above mentioned public forum. Again I encourage you to go to the forum and read for yourself. This here is just my extract. And it is a very interesting read - in more than one sense on the word. In the meantime this might be an "appetizer".

Tosch

David_Genadek__orientation_1_.pdf

David_Genadek_rigging_position_1_.pdf

David_Genadek_spine_movement_1_.pdf

David_Genadek__orientation_1_.pdf

David_Genadek_rigging_position_1_.pdf

David_Genadek_spine_movement_1_.pdf

Edited May 14, 2008 by Tosch

[Tosch]

I prefer a slightly v-shaped seat with the low spot in the middle (a hair behind) of the seat, a fairly low build-up with a bit of dish to sides of the build-up and a slight rise towards the cantle. This seat lets me easily sit in the middle of the saddle with the ability to move as desired. When I first rode in this saddle I rode it for 3 hours ( a long time for me) , nothing did hurt and I was as fit as at the beginning of the ride and felt perfectly balanced the whole time.

The pics show what the seat looks like from different perspectives. I also like a dish that is there when I want it, a 3/4" dish seems to fit the bill for me.

In a seat to long for me I brace against the cantle with my feet stigging out in front - no good at all.

Tosch

Edited May 14, 2008 by Tosch

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Tosch,

thanks for the links, very interesting information. I especially like near the end of the thread, David provides a link to this forum so that everyone on that forum "can see what they are up against when you go to buy a saddle". His explanation of why he wouldn't send a tree to Greg to try building on is also very clear... he doesn't think others are open minded enough to try different ideas and decide for themselves.

D.

[greg gomersall]

David how much do you want for a tree? As I previously mentioned the first time this came up I am sure we could work something out if you were willing to discuss it with me. Greg

p.s. thanks Tosch

[Tosch]

Darc, Greg:

On purpose I kept a tight rein on myself not commending on some things, I wanted to keep my remarks "down to the facts". Glad you read it.

Tosch