Rolling The Cantle Binding

[mworthan]

Hello,

I hope that some of you folks can help me out to maybe find a hole or two in my process where I am not doing enough to prepare my binding for shaping because I am having a heck of a time (sometimes easier and sometimes harder) to get all my wrinkles out from underneath the Cheyenne roll. I am using about a 9 oz piece of skirting for starters, skiving the leather down about halfway out and around the edges (maybe not enough), glue down the top, roll it around the back and then start from the ear and work my way across. Seems like I get to one area at times and there is no way I am going to get all of that wrinkle smoothed out. other times it happens without too much fuss. I just walked back in from the shop and I've got one of those bad ones going on.

How to you guys do it? What is your process and what is some of the big gotcha's that if you don't pay close attention, it just ain't gonna happen?

Thanks for any help you can give, I'm hung out here in Rome, GA with no local saddlemakers I know of to talk to and watch.

- Mike

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Mike, I am not sure that you would want to be around when I am doing it, unless you are wearing a good set of ear plugs! Language gets a little raw. Anyway, not that I am the best at this, but; I start with 7/8oz. and around the bottom edge and back to about the roll I skive about 1/2 thickness off, as for the ears, I really skive the area that will be under and around the point of the cantle I work it down even thinner so that the wrinkles will work out easier. I usually start at the the center and work out to the ends on both sides, it pushes more leather towards the ends, but; thats where I have skived it the most and work out the most wrinkles. Also, I do not glue when I first put the binding on because I work really hard at stretching the binding while cased,starting by tacking one point and stretching to the other point around the edge, for me it helps the binding to form around the whole thing, and actually get the top side to form without anything but a couple of tacks 9usually 5 or 6) in the stitching groove to keep it in place till it dries and forms. That is when I tool the binding, if it is going to be tooled. I also like the way it stitches and glues on once it is really dryed. It also dies, and edges better for me. This is the way I do it, oh yeah, I also use a lot of "salty" language and body english. If there is a better way I will be very interested, I will be watching this thread to see what the others say.

Hope that helps.

Bob

[JRedding]

This sounds familiar, I've had those moments it wasn't safe to open the door, but I may be able to help with this one. your leather selection and skiving sound pretty good to me I think you're difficulty may be in how you lay it down and where you're putting the extra leather left behind by shaping around the concave side of a binder. I usually give it a good pre-fit before I glue anything to make sure it's going to submit, this helps stop surprises like I didn't skive thin enough and now it's too late because I've glued it all up. Once you've taken you're best guess and you're ready don't start in the middle and work outward, this only creates more surplus leather to deal with the farther towards the cantle points you go. Rather than stretch it around a cantle you need to bunch it under the cantle, basically push the leather together to make it form a concave shape rather than try to stretch it all the way around and hope you don't have too much extra before you reach the end. Start at about the ten and two positions ( if you're standing behind it ) and work the leather inward towards the top center of the cantle, this should get you started in the right direction, then start below the ten and two positions and do the same, pushing it together rather than stretching it towards the cantle points. With the right leather choice, some moisture, and just a few minutes it should fit well. Just stop and think which way you need to work the leather to make it become concave under the binder and it's pretty self-explanatory really, you'll see which way to go. It's the same thing when shaping seats in, don't start trying to form leather into the dish of a seat by working it upward towards the cantle top, start at the top of the cantle and work downward, pushing more material into the dish will make it become a concave shape which is what you want when shaping into the dish. Basically anytime you need to form leather into a concave shape like seat dishes or under cantles, push don't pull. I hope this makes sense and cuts down on the frustration a little for you guys.

[Billy H]

Thanks Bob and JReddings,

I have been struggling with the binders.

How do you guys make it look nice and neat when cutting the excess after sewing. I work really hard to make the sewing look nice, but when I cut the excess leather off--- the end result is poor. ( very frustrating )

Thanks Billy

[bruce johnson]

I pretty much do like Jim but an old man showed me a trick after fighting a few. I cut my binders on a slight curve. I don't use a pattern, just kind of do it by eye. I skive like has already been mentioned. Once I have it wet up and cased to be back to right and moldable, I kind of fold it a little down the middle where it will lay over the back of the Cheyenne roll and shape it some. Put a stitch groove in the leading edge with will be the long side of the curve. When I lay it in place, center the binding and tack in the middle and work ymy way out to the corners tacking every so often in the groove line. As you lay that long side down, the shorter back/underneath edge will tuck up underneath almost on its own.

There is a lot less bubble to work out underneath for me. I do that like Jim and kind of compress small bubbles at a time. I was taught to start that in the corners and work in about 3" sections at time. By the time I get up on top, most of the time I don't have any bubbles at all. I run a tickler around underneath to push everything up tight ahd throw a few small nails in the from the bottom the hold it up tight.

[mworthan]

I pretty much do like Jim but an old man showed me a trick after fighting a few. I cut my binders on a slight curve. I don't use a pattern, just kind of do it by eye. I skive like has already been mentioned. Once I have it wet up and cased to be back to right and moldable, I kind of fold it a little down the middle where it will lay over the back of the Cheyenne roll and shape it some. Put a stitch groove in the leading edge with will be the long side of the curve. When I lay it in place, center the binding and tack in the middle and work ymy way out to the corners tacking every so often in the groove line. As you lay that long side down, the shorter back/underneath edge will tuck up underneath almost on its own.

There is a lot less bubble to work out underneath for me. I do that like Jim and kind of compress small bubbles at a time. I was taught to start that in the corners and work in about 3" sections at time. By the time I get up on top, most of the time I don't have any bubbles at all. I run a tickler around underneath to push everything up tight ahd throw a few small nails in the from the bottom the hold it up tight.

Thanks Guys. There is one thing that Bruce said that has me wondering if I am starting this thing all wrong. Seems from what Bruce says that most of these bindings are cut straight and what Bruce likes to do is cut a slight arch with the longest edge being along the stitch groove side and thus forcing the shorter side of the arch to stretch (making it tighter as it is tacked in place) underneath the roll. Here is where I may be causing myself a lot of problems... I have been using a pattern that is in the shape of the cantle, just like Watt does. Basically a large letter "C". That puts a lot of leather out there to be compressed under the roll once I think about it.

Am I understanding this correctly? Are most of you cutting a straight piece (or in Bruce's case sligthly arched) then tacking and bending it along the cantle? If you are I am definately on the wrong (or just more difficult) track by creating a basic fan shape with the biggest part needing to be compressed (maybe excessively) to get it smoothed out under the roll.

[JRedding]

Thanks Guys. There is one thing that Bruce said that has me wondering if I am starting this thing all wrong. Seems from what Bruce says that most of these bindings are cut straight and what Bruce likes to do is cut a slight arch with the longest edge being along the stitch groove side and thus forcing the shorter side of the arch to stretch (making it tighter as it is tacked in place) underneath the roll. Here is where I may be causing myself a lot of problems... I have been using a pattern that is in the shape of the cantle, just like Watt does. Basically a large letter "C". That puts a lot of leather out there to be compressed under the roll once I think about it.

Am I understanding this correctly? Are most of you cutting a straight piece (or in Bruce's case sligthly arched) then tacking and bending it along the cantle? If you are I am definately on the wrong (or just more difficult) track by creating a basic fan shape with the biggest part needing to be compressed (maybe excessively) to get it smoothed out under the roll.

In my opinion you're right about cutting a binder in a shape rather than a straight piece, it does add more leather to do something with on the underside. By shaping the straight piece to fit the top side of a cantle it naturally starts you in the right direction on the bottom. And learning to shape a straight piece onto a cantle saves waste during lay out and cutting. A lot of people use the shaped one and it works fine for them, I just like straight, I feel there is some advantage to the straight once you learn to work with it. I'd like to ask where on the hide most of you are choosing to cut a piece for a cantle binder though ?

[mworthan]

The straight or slightly arched is going to be how I handle the next one. It seems to mess up a lot of leather to do a "C" shaped binding piece and I think that shaping the straight(ish) binding would naturally make it easier to compress underneath the roll. Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate all of your input. I mean it. - Mike

[JRedding]

The straight or slightly arched is going to be how I handle the next one. It seems to mess up a lot of leather to do a "C" shaped binding piece and I think that shaping the straight(ish) binding would naturally make it easier to compress underneath the roll. Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate all of your input. I mean it. - Mike

I hope we've helped, you ask about trimming the excess, I just try to fit it as cleanly as possible under the cantle and work out the ripples before sewing it, I don't know about anyone else but mines skived about down to billfold weight by the time it reaches the stitch so it's fairly easy to tame. I can't seem to run a french edger without gouging something so I've learned to stand mine up and trim with a sharp knife, kind of like surgery for a minute but it's the only clean way I've mastered to do it. This is the kind of thing Bruce usually seems to have some neat trick for maybe he's got a suggestion.

[bruce johnson]

I don't know if it is a trick or not. I use a round bottom kind of French edger with some sweep to it. If I sew dry to avoid a rat butt pattern on top, then I spritz a little water on the bottom and let it soak in before I trim it. Cutting the binding with this tool and little moisture makes a nice slick edge. I just kind of try to run one rail over the stitchline and so far I haven't cut any off. If you keep the toes ground off the tool, you can run it right up into the corners. My leather is probably 6/7 or so there. This is an old Osborne #1 and it works.