Help Me Choose The Right Sewing Machine

[neelsaddlery]

Art:

I do appreciate your candid comments. However, it seems that you are are bit confused with regard to the nature of the operations and scope of business of Cowboy Sewing Machines. I would not expect you to know the details of our operations in China, since you have no affiliation with our company in any way. Please allow me to clarify on some of the points which you discussed below:

1. Art, if you will look closely at the post I made, it was in direct reply to your post, and not an attempt to answer the op's query about where the machines were made.

2. On every piece of import paperwork which I hold New Century Holding Group is listed as the Exporter/Shipper. This is because Xinyi Cowboy Sewing Machinery DOES NOT hold direct licensure to export any sewing machinery from China. As I said before, we work with an offspring company of New Century Holding Group that specializes in working for import/export companies that do not hold direct licensure to export from China. A similar scenario is such with Jennifer Wang. As I am sure you well know, Jennifer Wang is the executive officer of Hiress International Corp. Hiress International holds direct licensure with the Chinese Government to export products from China. Jennifer is also the chief buying agent for Cobra and sources machinery and equipment for Steve in China. When Steve was first looking at starting Cobra, he called me and inquired at great depth about the importing process in China and whom would be the best source to buy equipment and machinery in China. Jeniifer's name was brought up in the discussion. Jennifer used to work very closely with Jerry at Artisan and was one of his main contacts in China and worked with him for many years. That is one of the reasons why Steve chose to go with her. She already had access to all of the factories that Jerry had used, and knew many of the quality standards that were necessary for the sewing machine business in the USA.

3. Unless you are licensed US Customs broker, (I know Steve uses the services of an import broker in California) you would not fill out any paperwork for the importation of goods into the United States. US customs does allow for the informal application to be made for importation of shipments into the USA valued at less than $2000.00 USD. For shipment valued at more than $2000.00 USD formal entry must be made and the documents must be processed with US customs. US customs does allow for persons that are not licensed import brokers to do this, but the process is very long and time consuming. It states very directly on the US customs website that for formal importation of goods into the US, it is highly advised that a licenced import broker be obtained. In both cases of formal and informal entry, IT IS THE US CUSTOMS OFFICER THAT WILL FILL OUT THE NECESSARY PAPERWORK TO CLEAR THE SHIPMENT. It is the responsibility of the importer to make sure that the documents presented to the customs officer are correctly printed, but ALL OF THESE DOCUMENTS ARE PREPARED BY THE EXPORTER OF RECORD IN CHINA. I used to clear all of my shipments by myself with US Customs. However, after about the first 3 shipments, they started to red flag all of my shipments because frankly they do not want individuals to clear the goods themselves. US customs much prefers the automated interface that they have set up with licensed import brokers. This is why I know of no importer in the United States that will attempt to clear a shipment through US customs without hiring the servies of a professional and licensed import broker.

4. Nowhere on the Bill of Lading, Commercial Invoice, Packing List, or insurance policy is it required to list the name of the MANUFACTURER OF THE GOODS. What is required is the name of the exporter and the consignee to which the goods are going, as well as the country of origin, a description of the goods as well as quantity, weights, and so forth. NOTHING ELSE. However, recent US Customs legislation requires an ISF 10+2 form to be filled out and filed with US Customs 24 hours prior to the vessel sailing. In this form the name and address of the manufacturer of the goods is required. However, it is required by law that this form be filled out by the exporter of the goods in China. The importer is not allowed to fill out the form in any manner.

5. I am also glad that you referenced the post made by Mr. Bill Jiang a few years back on the leatherworker.com. What Bill said at the time of the post was very true. At the time, Bill was the factory manager and one of the principle investors of one of our biggest suppliers of sewing machines. He worked very closely with them for a number of years, but both our relationship with this supplier and also his was dissolved a year or so ago. At the time, a large portion of the machinery which we were offering for sale was made by this factory. One of conditions of employment and investment that Bill had with this factory is that he would have exclusive control of the US and European markets. So Bill's offspring company, Cowboy Sewing Machines, did procure machinery and equipment from a factory in which he was directly employed, and also invested in. So, his statement that Cowboy Sewing Machines were made in our own factory was indeed quite true at the time. However, becuase his relationship with the factory has dissolved, we no longer purchase any of our machinery from this factory.

6. I am personally fascinated with your understanding of the inner workings of Xinyi Cowboy Sewing Machinery Company. I am impressed that you can make the statement that we have only a minimal manufacturing capacity since you have never visited our 8000 square foot factory/warehouse in China, nor seen any or our product being assembled at that factory.

7. Many of the other readers on this board have commented that it seems that you very adamently promote the Cobra line of equipment. While I can make no direct or indirect claims about any of the information or rumors that I have heard about your direct or indirect involvement as an investor in Cobra sewing machines, it is nevertheless a point of interest and also a topic of conversation which I have held with virtually every sewing machine dealer in the country.

8. Art, rather than going to great extent to attempt to dissuade buyers of sewing machinery away from other dealers which you perceive to be a threat, it would be better to stay with the facts about what each seller has to offer. I am not even sure that the the readers of this forum would care to know the names of the factories where the machinery is made. What they do want to know is that they are getting a good quality sewing machine from a dealer that has honesty and integrity. The names of the factories who make the machines are asked only as a reference point to determine how similar one dealers product is to another.

Ryan,

You still didn't tell the op who makes the cb4500. Like I said before, Sewing machines in China are a complicated business. The Cobra 4 is made by Zhiqiang, that is what he asked about. The AK-20 is made by AnKai in Hunan province. I have to fill out the import paperwork on everything imported, I have to specify point of origin, so I have to know where it comes from. Even Highlead (Huigong No.3) doesn't make everything they sell under the Highlead name. New Century does have quite a bit of manufacturing capacity, but they are not the ones holding the export license for Cowboy, it is Xinyi Cowboy Sewing Equipment Co.,Ltd, which doesn't have more than a minimal real manufacturing capacity. Bill Jiang came on Leatherworker a few years ago and stated Cowboy used to buy rebranded from everyone, but now made everything themselves. This seems to be a different story from what you just told. I took him at his word and drew the conclusion that New Century Holding was doing the work.

So, who makes the cb4500?

Art

Edited March 25, 2011 by neelsaddlery

[neelsaddlery]

DR:

One thing you may want to look for is whether or not the Weaver version will have the same array of accessories that companies like Cowboy, Cobra, and Artisan would include. This would be things like the left and right toe presser foot, double toe harness foot, material guide, and also whether or not they use a variable speed DC servo motor. From what I heard, the Artisan machine is put up on their pedestal stand, which is a better stand than what we all offer, but I also know that Weaver was using clutch motors on all of their Adlers, and so not sure if they are using them on the new machines or not. Cowboy, Artisan, and Cobra all use the same variable speed DC servo motor and ball bearig speed controller. These are very good motors that allow an infinite array of speed control possibilies.

Cowboy offers the machine complete with a saddlers attachment and accessory package for $2495.00. This would include all of the items mentioned above, plus stainless steel flat slotted needle plate, holster plate, and stirrup plate, as well as the detachable work platform. All of our needle plates and presser feet are made of stainless steel.

Hope this is of some help to you.

Hi All , I've looked and Steve is a great guy and backs it all, I will most likley get one of his but not to put a rench into this but Weaver just sent me a add for their new lock sticher,about the same

price as Steve's class 4 . I just would like a dependable machine that will hold up , I dont realy care were and how makes it, I do enjoy every commit about all of these sewing machines.it's great .

Thanks

DR

Edited March 25, 2011 by neelsaddlery

[Art]

Ryan,

1. I am an importer and hold a license.

2. The last thing you need to do is educate me, as you have asked Steve a number of times to have me find out import information for you.

3. You still didn't answer the question, Who makes (what factory) the cb4500.

Art

[Johanna]

The OP asked which machine was the best choice for him. The conversation certainly went south from there! I see we have a few raw nerves exposed.

I got a note from a friend today, and I want to share part of it:

We do not see how it is of the interest to potential customers where exactly the machines come from, as long as they work the way they should and deliver solid value to the customer for years to come.

What matters most is that the customer gets a good machine, great service and gets the right information about the products they are buying. I believe this is the responsibility of the moderators in the sewing machine forum, regardless of which companies they have personally dealt with or are affiliated with or work for.

Please keep a professional factual tone if there is anything left to say on this subject. Threads that are not instructive or constructive are closed. Running with scissors is not permitted here. Thank you all for your cooperation.

Johanna

[Art]

Thanks Johanna, Wilco.

Art

The OP asked which machine was the best choice for him. The conversation certainly went south from there! I see we have a few raw nerves exposed.

I got a note from a friend today, and I want to share part of it:

We do not see how it is of the interest to potential customers where exactly the machines come from, as long as they work the way they should and deliver solid value to the customer for years to come.

What matters most is that the customer gets a good machine, great service and gets the right information about the products they are buying. I believe this is the responsibility of the moderators in the sewing machine forum, regardless of which companies they have personally dealt with or are affiliated with or work for.

Please keep a professional factual tone if there is anything left to say on this subject. Threads that are not instructive or constructive are closed. Running with scissors is not permitted here. Thank you all for your cooperation.

Johanna

[neelsaddlery]

Thank you as well Johanna.

The OP asked which machine was the best choice for him. The conversation certainly went south from there! I see we have a few raw nerves exposed.

I got a note from a friend today, and I want to share part of it:

We do not see how it is of the interest to potential customers where exactly the machines come from, as long as they work the way they should and deliver solid value to the customer for years to come.

What matters most is that the customer gets a good machine, great service and gets the right information about the products they are buying. I believe this is the responsibility of the moderators in the sewing machine forum, regardless of which companies they have personally dealt with or are affiliated with or work for.

Please keep a professional factual tone if there is anything left to say on this subject. Threads that are not instructive or constructive are closed. Running with scissors is not permitted here. Thank you all for your cooperation.

Johanna

[neelsaddlery]

Art:

1. For the sake of our readers, could you please describe in detail the nature of the license that you hold. Is it an import license? Some additional clarification would be appreciated.

2. I am sorry if I offended you, but it seems that you may be in need of some additional clarification and enlightenment regarding the import process and necessary documentation required. You mentioned in your previous post that you signed off on all of the import documents and were required to list the name of the manufacturer of the goods. I offered a counterpoint stating that US customs prohibits the importer of record from completing any such forms, and that on those forms there is no place for the manufacturer of the goods to be listed. With regard to your assertion that I had asked Steve to ask you to provide import information for me, the only thing I can think of is that when we were at a show a few years back Steve mentioned that you were using Import Genius, which is a generic software program designed to access existing US Customs databases for records of importation into the United States. This software is available to the general public and to anyone who wishes to pay the monthly subscription charge of $299.00. I remember I had asked Steve to see if you could access our import information and also that of several competitors to check the efficacy of the software. Access to such information is dependant on paying the monthly subscription fee only, and does not demonstrate any degree of knowledge with regard to importation and the associated rules and regulations, nor with regard to import policy and procedure as dictated by US Customs.

3. Art, it seems that you have some sort of fixation regarding the name of the manufacturer of our CB-4500 sewing machines. As I have stated in my previous post, all of my replys were directed towards comments that you had made regarding our theater of operations in China. They were not directed toward the OP who asked where the machines were built, and if you will scroll up, the original question asked by the OP was "Were the CB-4500 and the Cobra Class 4 made in the same factory?". The question was not, "Where is the CB-4500 made?". At the present time I cannot provide the name of the manufacturer of our CB-4500 machines, as the current market climate and nature of the the business in China would not make it a wise decision for me to do so. However, in about two months time, I will provide a free release of the name of the manufacturer of our CB-4500 machines. Not sure if you are trying to indicate that I am attempting to be deceptive, but at the present time I simply cannot release the name of our manufacturer.

In any event, I fail to see the relevance of any of this as it pertains to the users of the end product. The users of the sewing machines in the USA never really seem to ask or care about the names, addresses, or locations of the manufacturers of the machines in China. The predominate question that seems to be asked is "Is X's machine made in the same factory as Y's machine". Not, "What is the name and address of the manufacturer of seller Y's machine". The observations being made by the end users of the machines are used only as a basis to compare quality, Not to know the specific name of the manufacturer of the machines. The average end user in this forum could care less where the machines are made, they only want to know how seller X's machine compares to seller Y's machine.

The manufacturer of the machines is also irrelevant in that they have no control over the warranty, customer service, or level of support offered by the dealer here in the USA. They only build the machines. Nothing more. The predominant question that any buyer asks is whether or not the machine is of good quality, as well as what level of customer support and warranty they can expect, as well as price.

For the most part now in China, the quality amongst the major manufacturers of the 441 clone machines pretty well matches up. There are some small differences amongst the major manufacturers, but these differences are so small that the end user would never be able to discern them. Only an importer who knows the machines very well would be able to detect these differences.

Ryan,

1. I am an importer and hold a license.

2. The last thing you need to do is educate me, as you have asked Steve a number of times to have me find out import information for you.

3. You still didn't answer the question, Who makes (what factory) the cb4500.

Art

[broncobuster]

hi im not going to get into this but i do upholstry work n chap work n whatever else work. im still in the stone ages n i use an ols ANKER upholstry machine n i use that one for 30 yrs on just about everything. i use it for zipper replacement in coats, i make rodeo chaps n its goes threw 4 thickness of 4oz leather etc.. I also use a singer 111-153w which is a walking foot n that i put wear leathers on one inch thick wool blankets n it goes threw the 8-9 oz wear leather also. so ive use a very new machine n i have broke that one nothing to major but was an odd break. most all my machines are pre 1940s. not saying the new cowboys or techsew or cobras or whatever will not work for ya. but im an ol time machine operater. n i put a lot of hours on machines n if i spend more time fixing than working im not happy. and the other part is im cheap these machines i bought under 400.00 each. they are both industrial upholstry machines. n they go threw leather just fine. just go places n look at machines and take the thicknesses of leather your sewing threw and try them out. that is my suggestion. im not going to say one machines is any better than another. search ebay, craigslist, industrial sewing places, upholstry shops, shoe shops, n check them out they can let ya try theres out or tell you where to look. hope this helps some. Bronc

[Stocksuspension]

Thanks bronco