"can I Have Your Design?"

[MdB Leatherworks]

Welcome to the real world of holster making.

I looked at the thread on that forum. Your holster design is not something new or unique, and has been previously made by a number of holster makers. So I don't know that you'd have any legal grounds to any protection in that respect.

I'm not saying that you cloned someone else's design intentionally. Oftentimes a person has an epiphany on what they think is a unique design, and later come to find out that they're doing the same thing that someone else has done long before them.

IMO, you're choices are to draw up a tutorial of sorts for the forum or tell them you're not interested.

Which is why, in the end, I decided to go ahead and do a tutorial. I realize that it's entirely possible that I overreacted on a gut level about the whole thing, but it just made my teeth itch for some reason. Hell, I might go ahead and just post the pattern and be done with it.

As for the design itself, I didn't copy anyone. I sat down with a pistol and a clean sheet of paper a couple years ago and made an OWB pancake holster for my G23. I experimented with different degrees of cant, different levels of rise, sweat shields, no sweat shields, made duct tape mock ups (I saved A LOT of leather that way!) and finally settled on something that worked for me. When I recently got the CZ 82, I made the same OWB holster for it too. But after a bit I started to wonder if I could adapt that pattern into an IWB design, and the picture is the result. Does it surprise me that I reinvented the wheel? Nope, not a bit. But I came by that particular design honestly.

You know, as I read what I just typed I realized what set my hackles up about this whole thing- the hours of work and experimentation I put into getting where I am with it translated into an emotional investment. Hmmm.... Thanks for helping me see that, K-man.

I think I'll do a write-up of my design process AND post the pattern. After all, if I sell any of these it'll be my skill that makes the sale- not the design.

[JohnBarton]

I get really irritated when people ask me for exact patterns. Sorry but I spent a lot of time fiddling to get the exact dimensions down. I do things on my cases that other people don't do. I also get copied quite a bit. I did release a pattern on here of my own free will to help any aspiring case makers get an idea of the parts they will need to cut for a basic case. But I am not going to send out the ones I worked very hard to develop.

If I see something that someone else did then I am going to sit my ass down and figured it out myself. There is also a certain JOY in that for me. It's the discovery of figuring out what works and what doesn't and how to change things.

This is one reason I don't charge (yet) for modifications like a longer pocket or a longer case. I wanted to develop the skills and have my team develop the skills to change patterns instantly and be able to do what the customer wants quickly. Also it builds our own library of patterns which are then ready to use when the next customer comes along.

I have seen competitors refuse to do something as simple as change the side of the case that the handle is one with the claim that they would have to make a new pattern. Well I say that's BS and frankly I can't understand it. But maybe someone who isn't really into making true custom work is the sort of person who isn't into making their own patterns and as such isn't really willing to change them once they have them.

I don't know. I just think it's tacky to ask a competitor for certain things. I try to have a fairly friendly relationship with all my competitors in this business and with a few exceptions I do. I have often spent hours on the chat or the phone with other cue case makers giving them advice, and I have sent or sold them supplies. I value that interaction. But I draw the line at sending them my exact patterns. I think that there are some things that a person needs to develop on their own.

[BAD HIDE]

Sharing or selling your designs is entirely up to you. Personally, I'd share my patterns with most people. Nothing I make is all that complex, and I wasted a few good pieces of leather getting things right. I'm not worried about competitors, because my main competition is big box, big headed designer, cheaply made crap, not other leather workers. The pattern isn't special - what it's made of, how it's finished and assembled is what makes it unique.

People asking for patterns are either the experienced craftsman looking to expand or improve his line or the DIY weekend warrior. The first guy probably already has something very similar he could adapt, he's just curious about yours, and is trying to save some time and money. If he really has a need to make and sell multiple copies of the pattern, he'll buy one from you, rip it apart for the pattern, and make 100 anyway. If you give him the pattern or not, he's still going to figure it out and make a decent product. The second guy is looking for a cheap holster, or to fill his hobby quota for the month. Chances are, he'll spend more making that one holster than just buying one from you, his won't look as nice or hold up as well, but he's happy. He'll make a few for his friends, but eventually, they'll all come around and buy a better one - possibly from you.

[DaltonMasterson]

I have traded off several patterns over the years, and am getting ready to send a whole passel of them to another guy overseas. He will not be competing with me, as he has a different market than I do.

I have even given patterns to the guy sitting across from me at a gun show. I let the quality of my work outshine his in the end, even if it is the exact same pattern.

Build quality stuff, and people will still buy it over the guy building your pattern and not doing the quality that you are. If they buy his, they either have no appreciation for quality, or will be back to visit you later on.

But, I see your point too. I dont think I would post a pattern online for the entire world to view.

I like what Particle has done. (If its working for you still, Particle). He built an online tutorial on pattern making, showed it for awhile, and now charges a small fee for viewing the video. Basically, he has bettered my pattern making skills, helped the leatherworking community as a whole by creating better artistry, and is still making a buck doing it. At least I hope he is.

DM

[TexasJack]

I seldom end up in the middle of an argument, but I may be this time. In reading your post, it looks like both of you were "right". The guy asked you - fairly politely - if you'd be willing to donate a pattern. You responded - also politely - that you'd be willing to help, but not with a pattern. Yes, you disagreed, but openly and fairly. After that, things get a little strained, but still far less than I see on far too many threads.

For some reason, there seems to be a lot of people who think they can make anything (and do it for nothing) if they just had that magic "pattern". It's like technique and effort have no part in the process! If you know how to make holsters (or substitute any leather goods you desire to make), then you could probably look at someone's creation and figure out how to do the same thing. If you don't know how to do it, the best pattern in the world won't help.

[particle]

I like what Particle has done. (If its working for you still, Particle). He built an online tutorial on pattern making, showed it for awhile, and now charges a small fee for viewing the video. Basically, he has bettered my pattern making skills, helped the leatherworking community as a whole by creating better artistry, and is still making a buck doing it. At least I hope he is.

DM

Thanks DM - yes, it's still working for me. Sorta... I'm definitely not getting rich off it - the expense to create the videos FAR outweighs the money the videos generate. I'm planning on making more videos, but I have to upgrade my computer & storage space first.

[TTcustom]

I think that what I'll do is write up a tutorial on basic holster design and construction. After all, I learned how to make holsters by reading tutorials that someone else wrote- it's only right that I help others get started. I have no issue teaching someone how to come up with their own design, but I won't give away the ones I developed.

Thanks for the advice!

I am with everyone on this. I don't mind teaching someone to fish but I am not going to show them my favorite spots.

[JohnBarton]

If you developed it then there is no reason for you to give away the bread and butter to those who won't do the grunt work. All of us HATE to make patterns. Nothing like making a pattern you think is the nuts and then you put the piece together to find that you still need to tweak it. And tweak it again and again. This IS the process that so many people want to skip over.

I share what I WANT to share. I have shared basic patterns here and tutorials on how to do some techniques and also just given examples of stuff we developed or refined.

But no way will I give out the patterns of the stuff that I spent a LOT of time developing. I didn't even have anyone else's case to start with for some of this stuff, we had to invent it some of the ways we do things. I do get very irritated when people ask me to give them a blueprint to the case making business. Thankfully that only happens about once a year.

I maintain conversations with several case makers and aspiring case makers and will often send them detail pics on skype of the way we do things. But this happens AFTER we have become friends and if I have time. I don't mind sharing when it's on my time. But I don't share everything and I see that when some people copy me they get it wrong in important ways that are particular to cue cases. This is because they can see the exterior but have no clue about the engineering to make that pretty little d-ring holder able to withstand 15lbs of stress on it.

I have an abundance mentality which basically means that I really feel that there is business enough for everyone. But I don't see the need to be the R&D facility for my competitors.

[JohnBarton]

I seldom end up in the middle of an argument, but I may be this time. In reading your post, it looks like both of you were "right". The guy asked you - fairly politely - if you'd be willing to donate a pattern. You responded - also politely - that you'd be willing to help, but not with a pattern. Yes, you disagreed, but openly and fairly. After that, things get a little strained, but still far less than I see on far too many threads.

For some reason, there seems to be a lot of people who think they can make anything (and do it for nothing) if they just had that magic "pattern". It's like technique and effort have no part in the process! If you know how to make holsters (or substitute any leather goods you desire to make), then you could probably look at someone's creation and figure out how to do the same thing. If you don't know how to do it, the best pattern in the world won't help.

Absolutely right. Even in my shop we are constantly tweaking patterns to account for different thicknesses in leather, curves, pocket shapes, etc.... pattern making is actually the easiest part of the process.....knowing what to do with them and how to do it is the hard part.

[DoubleBarP]

This is a great discussion and as someone who just started in earnest trying to get it right. My story is: I have always had an interest in Leather craft. In the 60's I worked for my grand dad getting 2 bits for shining shoes in his shoe repair shop. He also did saddle and harness repair. About 25 years ago I went to a buddy's place and walked into his home leather shop and that smell of leather brought back those childhood memories of working with leather. Yes there is a point.

I just retired after 36 years of totin a gun. One of the things that has always been a pet peeve is commercial holsters with the "will fit" list. As I said a friend makes custom leather and taught himself the craft. He makes some first class stuff and usually runs 10-14 months behind.

When I retired a couple of months ago I decided that I had time on my hands with nothing scheduled so I went to the basement with several firearms and some of the holsters that I like and set out to figure out how they were built. I managed to rough out a couple of pattern starting with a line across a page of card stock paper.Tracking the gun figuring out the angle, stitch line and holster shape.

Yes I watched the videos, and got the AH book (discovered I had most of the info in the FO Baird book I already had). The problem was that the patterns in that publicationare not contemporary designs nor are they necessarily safe designs (exposedtriggers).

After cutting, gluing, and sewing several only to discover "it don'tfit" on on more holsters than I can count. I keep going back and tweakingthe pattern to try to get it right. I have a couple of shopping bags of thoseefforts. I also took some of them to my friend to get his suggestions. I askedhim recently "how do you get your designs Aesthetically pleasing? He replied justkeep trying over and over until you get it right and it works for you.

The point of all this is that I don't have any design skill. I have looked atwhat others have done and tried to come up with something that will work forme. If there was a design packet out there I would probably buy it just like Ibought the other books to see what makes it tick and how it was put together.

Building a holster for me is something very personal as Iknow that the design, quality, workmanship, and craftsmanship of what I builtmay well be something that another person carries a life saving tool in. Thatmotivates me to continue until I get it right.

I'll take help from where ever I can get it from. It'slike shining shoes for my grand dad, nothing went out of the shop that he didnot approve of or would have worn himself.

I will not go back tolurking are reading.

=P:whatdoyouthink:

Edited March 4, 2012 by DoubleBarP