Making a Leather Bottle

[MikeDB]

Mike, that is an excellent history and step-by-step guide to making a leather bottell. Just the kind of information I look for in a project.

I also like the Crimean War leather jack you made that you show in the topic labeled "Leather Mugs and Rings". I have been wanting to learn how to make one of these jacks. Is it safe to assume that similar steps are taken to make one as with your leather bottell? A cuir bouilli project?

I am looking to make one for a 1700 to 1720 time period -- something that would have been common in English dockside taverns. I think this kind of pattern was used even before 1700, but correct me if I'm wrong. I'm still trying to find information about them and how to construct them. Did they make them in pint capacities?

Do you know of any paper patterns and history for them?

I would enjoy seeing you do another step-by-step guide on one of these jacks with history and patterns again. I would really benefit from that. I'm been having a difficult time finding good information about making these. It would also be a challenging leather project for me.

Thank you for your assistance and consideration.

-Bill

Indianapolis, Indiana USA

Bill,

First of all, thanks for the kind words.

Some answers to your questions.....and sorry for the delay. Been off away for a weeks fishing! The overall pattern is very common, certainly, as far as I know, used in the period you mention. It's actually pretty much similar to an Elizabethan bombard so the pattern and certainly the technique of construcuction would have been known from at least 1500. It is easier to make than a traditional Tudor style tankard but the first pattern is a little more difficult to plan as, on the flat, it looks wrong.

I've no empirical evidence for paper patterns from the period but can only summise that a pattern was used, either something in wood or, more likely in leather.

I haven't done a full photo session on making a traditional Jack but if you want some more detail then feel free too drop me a PM and I will try to help.

Mike

[Saltator]

Mike . Thank you for this wonderful article. Any additional info on the "welt" part of this would be gratefully recieved. Very magnanimous of you to share your hard earned expertise in this way.

Many thanks Tom Dance (Saltator)

[PaganBear]

BUMPING.. cause I'm re-new and thats what new does

Mike, excellently written tutorial. This is something im interested in trying out and I have found a few books and other articles on it.

is there any way to get the pictures rehosted or uploaded?

Thanks,

- Bear

[iwannabeacowboy]

I also would like to see the pictures reloaded. Great info, but the old saying"a picture is worth a thousand words" applies.

Thanks

Charlie

[Petsha]

too bad the pictures are gone

[Gheechee]

I've used the brewers pitch, but also a micxture of beeswax and pine rosin( pure ) will work too. as for the problem of the wear with the wooden stopper. Use a hair dryer and roll the flask around or add a pinch more and then use the hair dryer. this can be done at any time. cheers

[kiltboy]

First- awesome tutorial! Of course, I found it after I finished, and then tossed several pieces. He really means it when he says "trial and error" on how dry the leather needs to be!!

For lining the bottel- I use a mix of brewer's pitch and beeswax, about 60% wax- I like this as the pitch makes the wax a bit more flexible, so any issues of seam leakage will be somewhat mitigated. Mind you, I live where cold isn't really the issue, heat is. I've had my pure wax bottels leak after a day's hike in the summer- but once the tacky pitch mix was added, those seem to do very well. Only issue is that the stoppers sometimes get almost welded into the bottel- especially after a very hot day!

Another supplier possibility is a hobby store like Ben Franklin's Crafts or Michael's here in the US- beeswax is expensive, but available. As for brewer's pitch- has anyone found another supplier for it other than Jas Townsend?

Thanks again for the tutorial!

Robert in Reno

[hivemind]

Pics are dead in this tutorial, Mike. Any chance of getting them replaced? I finally have a pot fulla beeswax in the shop and wanted to try this.

[switchblade5984]

looks like the pictures took a dive

[MMArmoury]

After a long while I decided to give a try at making one. This first attempt is what I am making my "mistakes" on. First, the leather I chose was much too thick at 10-11oz, it would not distend much, I hear from others that 8oz is the proper weight. I used aquarium sand, next time I think I'll use popcorn kernals. I had to do the sand twice because I did not realize the first time that you are supposed to pound the sand down with a dowel, the second time I used a dowel and expanded it to twice the volume though I still don't think it's enough, but I have to live with it because the leather is too thick.

I also glued the edges before stitching with rubber cement, I wonder what safety factors there are for continued use, I will be shopping for more cement and I will look for a non-toxic one. Also, the straps slots are going to be too long and narrow, on my future versions I will adjust the pattern and drill simple holes for rope straps.

Anything else anyone can think of? Oh, and has anyone come up with any ideas for wooden stopper sources?

Lastly, upon filling it out with sand the second time I notice that there is a white waxy residue on the outside. I have been wet-moulding tooling leather for years but have never encountered this residue before.

Edited May 28, 2010 by MMArmoury

[Luke Hatley]

NOT BAD FOR THE FIRST ONE... but i will have to agree with you on the mistakes you made.

what will you be lining it with to make it hold water ?

[MMArmoury]

You're not supposed to AGREE with my mistakes!

Well I'm going to line it with a 1/1 mixture of brewers pitch and beeswax, and do pure beeswax on the outside. I just found out something very interesting from a Tandy manager who has made a few of these himself. He says that the location of the hide the pieces are cut from has an effect on how well the bottle expands during the sand stage. The butt and back sections are tough and do not stretch well, but the bellies are the best for stretching so he recommends making them out of bellies.

[Luke Hatley]

You're not supposed to AGREE with my mistakes!

Well I'm going to line it with a 1/1 mixture of brewers pitch and beeswax, and do pure beeswax on the outside. I just found out something very interesting from a Tandy manager who has made a few of these himself. He says that the location of the hide the pieces are cut from has an effect on how well the bottle expands during the sand stage. The butt and back sections are tough and do not stretch well, but the bellies are the best for stretching so he recommends making them out of bellies.

excuse me..........

dont know what part of the World you are in, but where will you be getting your Bewers

Pitch ? I dont want Townensends. i am looking for the real Black Stuff.

[Luke Hatley]

here are two of mine. yes i used the Belly Leather and after they were packed

with sand i put them in boiling water for a very short period of time.

they are very hard.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Luke Hatley

[MMArmoury]

I'm in the USA, New England. I will be using the stuff from Townsends, which is pine pitch. It comes from the Pitch Pine tree (Pinus Rigida) which is common in the Eastern US. Black pitch is made from boiling Birch tree sap which turns black. I don't know of anyone who makes it.

I do make a "jacking" solution of 1/1 pine pitch/beeswax and I add lampblack for coloring which is pure carbon. Ironically Townsend also sells it erroneously as powdered ink. One of their ink packets into a one pound of pine pitch/beeswax solution turns it extremely black. I tried using this recipe for cartridge box flaps but I found the results to be too tacky for practical use so I am abandoning it.

An alternative for historical black dyeing is the various recipes of "vinegaroon" listed through the forums here, I just do not know what toxicity issues there might be all that iron seeping into the leather, so I do not know if it is safe for leather drinkware. By the way, as to a previous question about cement, I have switched to a latex based cement (Tandy-Tanner's Bond Craftsman #C-1339 Contact Cement), I do not know if it waterproof but it requires a thinner to dilute it (it's pretty watery as is out of the bottle). It reminds me of "liquid latex" used by makeup artists.

Edited May 29, 2010 by MMArmoury

[MMArmoury]

Here is my next attempt, along side my first. Neither is finished, the first one as I said is my "mistake" prototype, I will use it first at each stage, lining the inside is next. For my second attempt I tried a new shape (I am making several shapes), this was was thinner leather at 8-9oz and fresher (the other had been lying out in the sun in the car for months, that's why it's darker, a natural tan). This time it was much more flexible, I got it to expand to twice the amount of the first piece. I roughly measured the volume to about 4/5ths of a quart, or 750ml, a practical size I estimate. I have to harden it next, don't know if I should re-soak it in hot water. Then to sand the edges and line the interior.

Edited June 4, 2010 by MMArmoury

[MMArmoury]

Any more thoughts on the use of welts in the construction? I'm having a tough time deciding whether to start making them with welts.

[Luke Hatley]

I did not see the need for a welt in mine.

as for as the color, when you line it with the Beeswax the inside will be sealed

so you would not be getting a taste of the dye.

[MMArmoury]

Finally finished my first ones! I already sold some this weekend and they were a hit, lots of interest in them.

[druid]

Good God Almighty...

these are FANTASTIC! Even those who say they were "mistakes"...awesome work!

Those looking for plates of beeswax, there's a local shop here in town that sells it: http://www.moravianbookshop.com/

Give them a call or write...I'm sure they can help you out.

[MMArmoury]

Good God Almighty...

these are FANTASTIC! Even those who say they were "mistakes"...awesome work!

Those looking for plates of beeswax, there's a local shop here in town that sells it: http://www.moravianbookshop.com/

Give them a call or write...I'm sure they can help you out.

Why thank you. I added hemp rope straps which I don't have pics of yet. My second batch should be even better, they will be finished in about a month. Eventually I hope to be adding custom turned wood stoppers. How does white oak sound for stoppers? I think they would look good with these "English" style "bottels".

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I wouldn't use oak for stopper due to porosity, and tannins. I would use maple, or birch, that is if I was to use wood. Being a machinist, I would probably turn some metal stoppers.

[hivemind]

Going to make one of these tomorrow, now that I have a sewing machine. I think I'm going to use whitetail antler for a stopper.

[Leather Bum]

I archived this topic back when it was first started (May 2008) including the pictures, and I think I've placed the them in the correct locations here. If any of the Administrators wants to edit the original post, I can supply the images. . . (they even appear to be full size.)

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this or if it's ok for someone new to post such a thing but I thought some may be interested.

A very non-definitive guide to how I make a leather bottle.

This bottle is based on the ones recovered from the wreck of the Mary Rose.

Bottles like this were commonly in use in Great Britain from the 11th century to the beginning of the 17th and hopefully this will be an example of traditional wax cuir bolli (soaked in boiling beeswax to create a great strength within the leather and a waterproof and fairly easily maintainable finish.

It starts out with a paper pattern and some 3.5mm (ish) veg tan shoulder

I have a master pattern in card but use paper on actual cutting.

Cut out the two halves and then the welt.

Some of the recovered bottles only had a partial welt, it seems to preserve the round shaping of the neck but I have found that the full welt not only adds much to the strength but also, when combined with a narrow edge prevents any warping of the leather.

The above shows the two halves and welt glued and the stitching pattern marked out with an adjustable groover. You need to be a little more creative with the stitch marks around the handle sections, just a matter of care, time and patience.

If I'm going to add any decoration I scribe in the design at this stage, be very careful not to go through the surface of the hide, if you do it can split open when it wet moulded.

Once I have got this far and am happy that it looks ok I mark the handle holes and cut them out. Now it's looking more like a bottle, hopefully!

Now it's off to the bath. I soak a bottle this size in several changes of hot water for a couple of hours, at least until the leather stops fizzing.

Pointless picture of leather fizz….

Once I'm happy the leather is pliable enough it's time for shaping. I used to use sand but found it a bit of a pain really and now use pearl barley. It's still traditional and much easier to remove from the item.

Packing the barley take a bit of time and the judicious use of a length of dowel to make sure it takes the shape you are after. It's a fair effort too, a guide being that if you push hard enough to break the dowel then that's too hard!

You also need to take care that you don't mark the surface of the leather; any scratches on it now can be a pain to remove later.

I've just used a cork to seal the top here and will now let the poor thing rest on some scrap leather till it's dry, weather permitting a couple of days. Any hint of water in the bottle can ruin the wax dipping so it's really worth waiting.

It at least looks more like the final shape now.

Well it's been 48 hrs and the bottle is near dry so just a few more steps to go in the making.

Time for a tidy up of the edges now the leather has settled a bit.

There are many methods for smoothing the cut edges but I just use a bone folder and either gum trag or saliva. (if you want to be traditional then spit works really well as the enzymes react with the leather fibres)

It's really just a matter of patience and work till you get the level of smoothness you require.

I've tried to show here how the bottle edge isn't straight, this is caused by the moulding process and sometimes the leather drying out at differing rates, however this can be corrected after the bottle is wax dipped.

After I have the edges and any handle cut outs smoothed off to the degree I want it's time to start adding colour, the process that for me starts to change the whole look of the item.

For a period looking bottle I'm going to use three oil dyes.

First a coat of mahogany then mid brown ending in a coat of dark brown. These coats are not even so when the bottle is waxed you can see a slight variation and depth of colour.

Looking more like the finished bottle now methinks. You need to bear in mind that the wax dipping will change the colour so the whole bottle will be darker when it's finished.

Next the waxing……..

Well I guess it's time for the last bits on bottle making.

Waterproofing and hardening the bottle.

I'm not going into too much on Cuir Bouilli methods of which there appear to be legion, lets just stick with dipping the finished bottle into hot liquid beeswax.

Firstly then, get yourself a reasonable amount of wax and a gert great double boiler and let it melt. For a pan of this size (13 litres) it took about 2 ½ hours to melt fully.

I usually do this on a propane burner in the workshop but to aid pictures you will have to put up with the kitchen. Always keep a fire blanket to hand chaps, while beeswax melts at a mere 62 degrees and has a flashpoint of something like 254 degrees it will still burn if ignited, think huge candle and the sort of burn injury Ivan the Terrible would classify as 'most amusing'

When the wax is melted it's really just a question of immersing the object (turn off any flames)

(As you have spent a long time and much effort to get this far I'd recommend trying a test piece first)

When the bottle is submerged in the wax any air in the leather is given off and it bubbles, possibly another route for the term boiled leather as opposed to water boiling.

You can just see in the above picture the amount of fizz generated by the bottle.

I leave the bottle in the wax till the bubbles stop, no real timing as different pieces and different leather thickness will change the immersion time.

Once the bubbles have stopped remove the bottle carefully. Although it was fairly rigid from the wet moulding it will now be pliable and a tad hot! Wipe away any excess beeswax while it's still hot, much easier than trying to remove it when it cools and leave the bottle to cool.

When the bottle is cool enough to hold but still fairly warm you can turn your attention to coating the inside and the seams. I simply use a funnel and pour some of the liquid wax into the bottle, keep the bottle moving to swill the wax around.

After you have built up a goodly coating of wax on the inside of the bottle let it cool off totally before you test it for leaks. Filling it with cold water too early can cause the wax to crack.

After it's cooled off I just fill with cold water to test it. If that's all ok then I fill it and leave it full for 24 hours just to be sure.

All that's left now is some polishing and fitting of a stopper.

I've seen many types of stopper fitted to period bottles, some roughly carved from wood, others more elaborate and made from rolled leather.

I've just added a rudimentary wooden one here but may well change that, anyhow, it looks a little different from the flat and undyed shape of earlier.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and suffering my rambles.

Cheers

Mike

Edited February 7, 2011 by Leather Bum

[hivemind]

Hah! You're the ######ing MAN! Well done!