Machine Recomendations

[Chris B]

Hello all, I know this question has probably been asked before but I will ask them again lol Any how Im thinking about going into harness making. But I have been researching machines and looking around and my head is spinning. Even with wizcrafts tutorial Im still confused as to what machines to presue. I know I need a machine that can sew at least 3/4" but I dont know about running a machine at its limits all the time. But I am just in the research phase right now to see what kind of cash I will have to come up with lol. But other then the thickness what else should I look for? And can you recommend a couple of machines to read about and research?

Thanks,

Chris

[dirtclod]

I have a Ferdco Pro 2000 that i have used for 15 years and never had a problem. I sew 3/4 inch thick stuff all the time. But it's higher then the imports. Can't tell you anything about the imports from China, never have seen or used one.One more thing if you want to sew Bio or Nylon don't get needle and awl machine. The hook on the needle will hang in the nylon and break the hook off.

Edited April 14, 2011 by dirtclod

[Art]

Do you have the Juki Pro 2000 or the Chinese one?

Art

I have a Ferdco Pro 2000 that i have used for 15 years and never had a problem. I sew 3/4 inch thick stuff all the time. But it's higher then the imports. Can't tell you anything about the imports from China, never have seen or used one.One more thing if you want to sew Bio or Nylon don't get needle and awl machine. The hook on the needle will hang in the nylon and break the hook off.

[Art]

Look foe the ASE No.9

This is the best harness machine I have used other than my Campbell, and you can do webbing on the No.9 too. You can hand crank it easily although most are motorized.

Art

Hello all, I know this question has probably been asked before but I will ask them again lol Any how Im thinking about going into harness making. But I have been researching machines and looking around and my head is spinning. Even with wizcrafts tutorial Im still confused as to what machines to presue. I know I need a machine that can sew at least 3/4" but I dont know about running a machine at its limits all the time. But I am just in the research phase right now to see what kind of cash I will have to come up with lol. But other then the thickness what else should I look for? And can you recommend a couple of machines to read about and research?

Thanks,

Chris

[dirtclod]

Hi Art i have the Juki Pro 2000.

[Wizcrafts]

Hello all, I know this question has probably been asked before but I will ask them again lol Any how Im thinking about going into harness making. But I have been researching machines and looking around and my head is spinning. Even with wizcrafts tutorial Im still confused as to what machines to presue. I know I need a machine that can sew at least 3/4" but I dont know about running a machine at its limits all the time. But I am just in the research phase right now to see what kind of cash I will have to come up with lol. But other then the thickness what else should I look for? And can you recommend a couple of machines to read about and research?

Thanks,

Chris

Chris;

I realize that I provided an overwhelming amount of information in the sticky article I posted. But, you can read a little at a time to get the best understanding of the different types of machines and their feed mechanisms.

You asked what other than the sewing thickness capacity you should look for in a harness stitcher. Let me try to help you with that.

Harness, halters and bridles are usually made of bridle or harness leather. It is usually of medium temper and marks quite easily (although marks can be rubbed out) and is hot stuffed with waxes. A harness stitching machine will have one of the following types of feed system: 1: needle and awl jumping foot; 2: needle feed jumping foot; 3: compound feed, with smooth or no feed dog.

1: Needle and Awl Machines. Campbell-Randall and Union Lockstitch (ULS) machines are the best of class needle and awl machines and are used by the top harness and holster builders. They use either glazed linen thread run through a wax pot, or bonded polyester (or nylon) thread. Most show harness is sewn on a Randall using 4 cord, left twist, Barbour's Irish linen thread, run through Lax Wax or another pourable liquid wax. Four cord linen is sewn with a #1.5 (170) or #2 (180) needle and a #2 (180) or 2.5 (190) awl.The equivalent bonded thread is 207 or 277. The difference is that linen thread is very soft and flexible (until the wax hardens) and bonded polyester is considerably harder. Nylon thread is even harder than polyester and is much harder on the take-up system, when it comes time to pull up the locked stitches. I use bonded nylon in my ULS without much problem.

There are two styles of Campbell-Randall stitcher: standard lift (3/4") and high lift (1 1/8"). The ULS is capable of clearing just a smidgen over 3/4" of material. They are both capable of sewing thin leather, down to 6-8 ounces, using 3 cord linen or #138 polyester, all the way up to 8 or 10 cord linen (#554 bonded), by changing the needle and awl combinations.

The Randall and Union Lockstitch machines have true square drive. The Randall uses a moving awl to stab, then pull the leather back the preset stitch length. The ULS uses the needle to pull the leather back. Both move the needle or awl straight back, rather than pivoting them from above, like standard machines do. This eliminates the pendulum stitch length problem when very thick leather has shorter stitches on top than on the bottom, or than thinner leather has. It is a fact of physics that causes this stitch length variance in pivoting needle machines.

Randall and ULS machines can sew through soft metal and plywood, if you use a large enough awl. This comes in handy when sewing briefcases, luggage, or items backed with plastic (saddlebags, seats).

What needle and awl machines don't do very well is to sew nylon webbing! I have done it and done it well, but you have to make sure that you use the smallest needle that will hold the thread, so as to completely fill the barb of the needle with thread. This leaves very little exposed barb to catch and rip the nylon or polyester webbing, or buffing wheels. This works for me.

Also, needle and awl machines require great care to turn the work around and back tack into previous stitches. The barb, if exposed, can rip out the bottoms of the previous stitches. To counteract this I turn the leather at an angle that points the previous stitch line away from the barb as it descends, as I back stitch. With care, it works fine.

2: Jumping foot needle feed machines. Few and far between anymore. The old Number 9 and later Luberto Classics, along with most Ferdinand Bull machines (and I think the Adler 105 or 205-64?) have a needle feed and jumping foot. There is no feed dog on these machines, making them a great choice for saddle and harness makers. Like the needle and awl machines they have a slot in the throat cover plate, big enough to allow the needle to move its full potential stitch length. Most makers offered plates with narrow or wide slots. But, most of these machines are now out of production. I do believe you can still get Ferdinand Bull machines, but am not familiar with their current feed systems. They used a system called square drive, where the needle was pulled straight back, rather than pivoting from an axle on the top. This allows them to sew through very thick multi-layer leather without any difference in the entry and exit hole positions, as mentioned earlier.

These jump foot machines are capable of sewing with large needles and thick thread; usually up to #554.

3: Compound feed machines. This is the most common stitching machine in use by leather makers today. Based either upon the German Adler 205-374, or the Japanese Juki 441, these Chinese clone machines look and sew just as good as the originals they are copied from. They are much less expensive than their ancestors. These are walking foot triple feed machines, where the inside pressor foot, the needle and the feed dog all move at the same speed and distance (except for pendulum effect in very thick material). This results in positive feeding of the material. The original machines shipped with teeth on the feed dogs and sometime also one the pressor feet. Most of the current importers and sellers of these clones will remove the standard dog and feet and equip the machines with so-called harness feet, and a smooth feed dog. This produces a very nice stitch and not too much puckering on the bottom.

The 441 clones are usually available with cylinder arms of 9", 12.5", 16.5" and 25", depending on the brand. The 9" are referred to as mini-stitchers. The 25" are sold to saddle makers or people repairing buggy fenders. Most crafters use the 16 1/2" arm machines. The Adler and its clones have 12" or 25" arms.

Most of these machines can sew between 3/4 and 7/8 inch of leather, using a large needle and sewing very very slowly. They come with powerful servo motors that have speed limiter controls (single rotary knob or up-down buttons) and speed reducer wheels between the motor and machine. They all have various accessories and optional items available, including non-standard single toe pressor feet, raised throat plates, box corner attachments, flat table attachments, swing-away roller edge guides, and wax/lube pots. Not every company carries all of these accessories, but they can be had by shopping around.

Pricing

Needle and awl machines are extremely expensive new (~$10k), very expensive rebuilt (~$3600), and expensive used but fixed up (~$2500). Most sell used for what a 16.5" 441 clone sells for brand new, which is about $2500 USD. Adler 205-370/374 machines sell for way over $5000 new. Weaver is the main dealer of Adler machines and they only sell to people with a tax license for their state, who open accounts. That means that a leathercrafter who is just expanding his business and not yet established as a retailer, or who only contract sews and needs no license, can't buy a machine directly from Weaver. Most of these folks buy a 441 clone, or Adler clone, from one of the dealers who are members of this forum and for half what Weaver charges for an Adler. The only license they need is a big handful of long wheelbase 10's. Weaver has lost tons of sales because of their policy about requiring State licenses and accounts, but they probably care as little as I care about them.

Crafters on a smaller budget can buy a 9" arm stitcher for well under $2000, plus shipping, all set up and well equipped. The newer models sew over 3/4" of leather and do it very well. These mini-stitchers will sew holsters up to nine inches turning distance. This might leave out makers of long barrel Western holsters, unless you only edge stitch the outside perimeter. But, you will be able to sew knife sheaths, pouches and cases, chaps, belts, wallets, etc. If you know you won't be sewing any hard leather projects exceeding 9 inches to the right of the needle, a mini-stitcher may be perfect for you. If you're not so sure about the distance requirement, buy a longer arm machine and don't worry about it anymore.

Whatever type of machine you are considering for your shop, make sure you can still get needles (& awls), bobbins, replacement parts that normally wear and help if something goes wrong (see below).

Lastly, you need to consider the availability of phone assistance with minor operating problems and actual machine repairs and servicing, should something jam or break. Most or all of our dealers offer phone support, or at least email support. Most will send you parts so that you can repair a damaged part yourself, rather than shipping the whole machine back by truck. But, if the worst happens, and as Forrest Gump said: __it happens, our dealers will try to repair a badly damaged machine at their location and send it back to you repaired, if possible. What I am saying is if the machine falls off the table and onto a concrete floor and the case cracks open and bearing housings are exposed, it might not be repairable. But, I'm not the one to say what a torch Wizard can or can't do!

Now, go get you a machine!

Edited April 14, 2011 by Wizcrafts

[Chris B]

Wow thanks everyone!!! Wizcrafts thanks for all of the information you have typed!!!! Man you all Ya I forgot to metion I might be sewing bio plastics with this also. It seems more and more people are using those biothane harnesses. So a needle and awl machine might be out. Art where could I find a dealer for an ASE #9? Or are they out of production? But I think I need to invest probably in two machines eventually, depending of what goes on with the biothane, it seems I may be asking too much to be able to do both. Or maybe I think to much...Again thank you everyone for the replies!!!!

Thanks,

Chris

[Chris B]

Ok if I would of googled I could saved a acouple of questions. Anyway is the ASE No.9 the same as the Luberto classic machine? Or did I read that wrong from there website?

Thanks,

Chris

[colttrainer]

Hi Chris

If I was doing it again I would not waste my time with the other machines. BUY A NEEDLE AND AWL MACHINE right from the start, I would go with campbells high lift.

If you check out freedmansharness.com, Toronto based harness maker they have a couple of needle & awl machines for sale, talk to Henry.

Al

[Wizcrafts]

Chris;

Call Campbell-Bosworth (800-327-9420) and ask if their N&A machines will sew biothane effectively. Maybe they can get some and sew it together for you as a sample. Then you can assess the result.

Since you're in Ohio, if you can get some biothane straps you could take them to Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines (866-362-7397), or Ryan's Saddlery in Lima Ohio (866-507-8926), and see if one of their various Cowboy stitchers will sew it properly. It believe that you can do this by using a size larger needle than normal to open a bigger hole, with #277 or #346 thread. The tensioning and take-up parts are plenty strong and can easily handle the added strain. These machines are very powerful and can be run very slowly, with huge amounts of punching power at slow speeds.

[Art]

In the late '90s they switched over to Chinese iron, but left the price the same.

Art

Hi Art i have the Juki Pro 2000.

[Art]

They are very very similar. You will occasionally see them used, check the used machine dealers.

Art

Ok if I would of googled I could saved a acouple of questions. Anyway is the ASE No.9 the same as the Luberto classic machine? Or did I read that wrong from there website?

Thanks,

Chris

[Chris B]

They are very very similar. You will occasionally see them used, check the used machine dealers.

Art

Thanks Art. But I do have one more question, who are the used machine dealers you would suggest?

Thanks,

Chris