Question Regarding Round Knife

[Chef niloc]

Bill IMHO is one of ( if not the) best makers out there today. From his hunting knives to his kitchen knives this maker turns out nothing but top end work.

[Vivaldi]

I came across this older thread while researching ways to sharpen my round knife and I found many extremely useful references and tips.

I have decided to try the slack belt sharpening system as referenced by Bruce Johnson earlier in this thread. However, if I use the belt system for sharpening and I create the convex (Moran) edge on my knife, can anyone tell me if I also need to do my stroping with a leather belt on the belt sander, or can I strop with leather on a wooden board? Or does it matter?

I am thinking if I strop with leather on a wooden board after using the belt system, the stroping will tend to flatten out the convex edge. Any information from experienced round knife sharpeners would be greatly appreciated.

[Art]

I use both the hollow ground and the convex edge types, it just depends on the knife. I accomplish both of these edgen on the same belt grinder. Sometimes when out of the shop and the grinder isn't available, a secondary flat edge can be applied. The secondary edge can also be applied if a really sharp/acute angle is desired, however the durability of the edge will suffer. My skiving knives are purely flat edges.

Now to your question. Stropping will seldom remove much metal, it is designed to true the edge that is there and remove any scratches. You have to learn to apply the same angle for any stropping stroke and maintain that angle throughout the stroke. There is the tendency to pitch the angle up at the end of the stroke in anticipation of flipping the knife over and stropping the other side. This should be avoided of course. So, the type of edge has little effect on how you strop or the effectiveness of the stropping. Most knives I have seen have a secondary flat edge on them, and this is actually a good thing, as not many folks haul a belt grinder around with them. You can apply a secondary flat edge to a convex or hollow ground (or flat edged) knife in the field with good results and any knifemaker should be expecting that to happen.

Secondary edges are very common, especially in hollow ground knives, and generally all knives once they have been sharpened. Knives sharpened to a hollow ground edge are usually less than durable (e.g. straight razor). Convex knives sharpened to a single primary convex edge tend to have a greater angle for an edge you can chop down a tree with, but maybe wouldn't want to use to shave (arm hair is one thing, a beard is a little more difficult).

This is probably a little more info than you wanted.

Art

[Vivaldi]

Thanks Art. Your info makes perfect sense and I find if very helpful.

[Tannin]

Interesting thread. I'm in a similar position to the original poster. My current thinking is to get a head knife about 4-4.5" - influenced by Al Stohlman's tool book. I currently live in the UK, so would likely buy a new Joseph Dixon knife (they are still making/selling a full range of them ) or something similar by another English maker (e.g. Barnsley). However, if Amazon.com would let me*, I would order the super-cheap "Abetta Round Knife - 6 X 4 1/2" from the USA - just to learn with; I have quite a lot of experience sharpening tools now and am willing to put in the time to create & maintain a good edge.

*By agreement with the UK government Amazon & eBay block the sale of most knives, apparently including head/round knives, to the UK. Although they allow the sale of other leather knives if they are labelled as "tools" rather than "knives" and they allow draw-knives - which are correclty recognised as a non-weapon knife/tool, as head/round knives should be IMHO). Seems unfair, as other vendors are allowed to sell them.

Interesting to read the recommendation to use a convex edge (as typically used on axes & bush knives for robust edges). For flat ground ("Scandi-grind") edges, I wonder if a little oil (or glycerine or water) on the leather and/or blade might help?

BTW Has anyone made a laminated steel round/head knife (e.g. hard middle layer for the cutting edge with softer sides for robustness & easy sharpening e.g. rockwell 58/61/58), like some Scandinavian knives?

Edited July 26, 2014 by Tannin

[Art]

In it's usual application, the convex edge is really a primary bevel. This leaves a maximum amount of metal behind the edge, giving a little more support. While I can get most knives really sharp with the convex bevel, it seldom stays that way because the edge will eventually have to be sharpened and a flat bevel will generally be applied. The secondary bevel is pretty much the norm on most knives unless the knifemaker wants to up "through the belts" to get the convex edge finish they want. This goes for the hollow ground edge also.

Art

[Tannin]

Art, in addition to the "slack belt" approach mentioned earlier in the thread, for grinding a convex edge - I came across another technique which might be more convenient for day-to-day hand sharpening, which is to use wet&dry paper (e.g. 600 grit) glued to a surface that gives, an old computer mouse pad is often suggested. I suppose you could also use a strop with some give too. [This is the opposite advice to that typically given for maintaining a flat/Scandi grind.]

BTW the laminated Swedish steel I mentioned above is, I believe, made in sheets (saw a youtube video on the production of the Mora/Frost knives, which are stamped out of sheets). If you could get it, then it might be enough to cut out the blade & tang shape and then grind the cutting edge.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Tannin

[Tannin]

...My current thinking is to get a head knife about 4-4.5" - influenced by Al Stohlman...would likely buy a new Joseph Dixon knife (they are still making/selling a full range of them ) or something similar by another English maker (e.g. Barnsley).

In the end, I ordered a 5" "saddler's round knife" by George Barnsley, Sheffield, England (possibly NOS i.e. New Old Stock). I have a couple of Barnsley tools already & like them.

[Tannin]

In the end, I ordered a 5" "saddler's round knife" by George Barnsley, Sheffield, England (possibly NOS i.e. New Old Stock). I have a couple of Barnsley tools already & like them.

Received the Barnsley round knife from LePrevo last weekend. The blade rang like a bell when I removed it from its cardboard blade guard, which sent shivers down my back! It arrived sharp - cut through 4mm saddle leather like the proverbial "hot knife through butter" - so I have just stropped it for now. Early days but delighted with it so far.

[alexitbe]

Hi Tannin,

How is the Barnsley knife? Are you still happy with it? Is it possible to get a four inch one?

Cheers

ALex

[Tannin]

Hi Alex, Yes, very happy with my Barnsley round/head knife (& my Barnsley English paring knife) but I am a hobbyist so they don't get a huge amount of use, as a pro's would. They are tools made for professional leather workers.

Re. 4", No, just one size I think but you could try asking LePrevo - I expect they bought a few boxes of tools when Barnsley went out of business some years. Happily, I read that some of the Barnsley decedents are starting the company up again, selling off some old stock and (I think) starting to make some new tools too - good luck to them . I would have preferred a 4" knife but this was the best deal and, the way I look at it, the 5" will eventually become a 4" (and then smaller) with use and sharpening - although that may well after my time! - and there is plenty of spare metal if I mess up (cutting or sharpening) a few times! :D Not a big deal really. Nor have I been tempted to cut down the handle so far (as suggested in Al Stohlman's tool booklet). BUT I strongly advise reviewing Al Stohlman's safety tips (in his tool booklet) before using a head/round knife for the first time - they are excellent and might save a finger or two

[alexitbe]

Hi Tannin,

Thanks for your response... I have contacted them and they only do a 5" knife. I wonder why Stohlmann was so against 5" knives...

Like you said though, the price is so good, in comparison to the only 4" available knives that I think i will end up buying...

Cheers

Alex

[Legendary Leathercrafts]

Some really great info here on round knives. I'm just curious if anyone has any feedback on these round knives by leather wranglers? I'm interested in getting one but it is a large investment. I really like the idea of a draw blade as well. http://www.shop.leatherwranglers.com/product.sc?productId=25&categoryId=7

[Tannin]

Seems awfully expensive but sure is pretty It looks like a good design and I would be surprised if it didn't come sharp & work extremely well. Bit like a Ferrari solution - but if you use it everyday perhaps a worthwhile investment. The most expensive tools aren't always necessary & don't always turn out to be the best/most effective option* (but sometimes they are :D - and if you enjoy them...). Just don't loose the darn thing!

[alexitbe]

I bought the Barnsley one I mentioned above. It seems pretty good, although I have not dared to sharpen it yet. It cut through the sofa when I dropped it on it. So its quite sharp already.

The cost was alittle less than 25 pounds. Cannot grumble at that price.

Also, bought their long skiving knife, which was only about 5 pounds.

You can buy directly from them and I was communicating with the owner (Mr Barnsley) over email.

Cheers

Alex

[KWosnig]

Difference between a head knife and a round knife is this. A head knife is beveled and sharpened on one side only, flat edge on opposite side for giving square cuts. Round knife is beveled and sharpened on both sides, giving a V cut.

Other than that, maintaining the edge is the only requirement, also these knives are meant to be pushed away from you, not pulled towards you or have the blade pointed into your body.

Edited March 9, 2015 by KWosnig

[Greywolf]

Thanks for the replies and the advice, much appreciated.

i currently use the Al Stohlman brand knife, not the Damascus blade but the regular one, I like it a lot but I just started using the round knife. I want a Damascus blade but Tandy doesn't carry them any more. As I get deeper into my business I can see that I will want to upgrade to a better knife, I used to be a professional cook and used Wustof Grand Prix knives made with high carbon trident steel from Soligen, Germany, absolutely loved them, and I never had a problem with rust, I would love to get something like that! As far as sharpening is concerned the two angles on the edge work best, cooks prefer them that way because they don't have to steel them as often, or re sharpen as often, many cooks have there knives professionally sharpened but I was too cheap to do that, I used a tri- honed ceramic sharpener and I also had a diamond steel, and a regular steel and so I could keep a good edge all the time, I don't know how that would work with a round knife as I am out of practice.

[Tannin]

I bought the Barnsley one I mentioned above. It seems pretty good, although I have not dared to sharpen it yet. It cut through the sofa when I dropped it on it. So its quite sharp already.

...

Owch. You took that in good humour. An important lesson expensively learnt - at least it wasn't your finger. I had a similar incident myself recently, albeit with an extremely sharp carving axe - it cut through its protective edge guard and slashed a faint line on a car seat, which some weeks later split open - annoying too as I normally keep all tools secured in the boot/trunk. I've since designed and made a more substantial edge guard for it I think folk in the UK (unlike, say, Sweden) have become accustomed to blunt knives & tools and are unprepared for what very sharp tools can do (and I include myself in that). I no longer allow people to handle my carving axes because, in general, I find they handle them with insufficient regard for their own safety - drop one of these on your foot & you will loose toes. My family have asked me to inform them whenever I sharpen kitchen knives now because, inevitably they or a guest cut themselves if not warned.

I suggest making a protective sheath (with a centre welt for the cutting edge) for your round knife a.s.a.p take a look at this thread: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=56687

Make sure you read all of the head knife sections is Al Stohlman's "Leathercraft Tools" booklet (I found it cheaper to order it from Amazon.com in the USA than to buy it from Amazon.co.uk or other UK suppliers - although I think LePrevo might have it at reasonable price) - it might save a finger.

Then, if it doesn't need sharpening, strop it on piece of leather glue to a piece of wood, with compound/polish if you have some (see Al's booklet or youtube for various techniques) - be careful when sharpening & stropping. The bevels should shine, near mirror finish, for most effective cutting.

Proceed with caution...it's a little scary and it demands your full attention but it is surprisingly versatile and effective.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Tannin

[Jimmy McLaughlin]

I see this is a old post but a good one. I just purchased a knife from Terry Knipschield and I love the knife. I am a new comer to the leather world, I didn't want to spend a lot of money on tools. I started out with box cutters then went up to Tandy's Al Stoleman's round knife. When I got the French blade one Terry made I couldn't believe the difference between the two. It the same with stamps and all the other tools I purchased, like most things you do get what you pay fore. The thing with the knife is, it is not that much more, what you get is a whole lot more. Look at that beautiful thing. If your logged in, thank you Terry.

 

Jim

[Greywolf]

I have the Bob Klenda model and love it and I also got a draw gage knife blade from Terry and it is incredible. They are expensive but way well worth it!

[Jimmy McLaughlin]

On 1/11/2017 at 0:28 AM, Greywolf said:

I have the Bob Klenda model and love it and I also got a draw gage knife blade from Terry and it is incredible. They are expensive but way well worth it!

It was a toss up for me the Klenda or Terry's french blade. Like you said they cost more but you will never regreat it. I wasted a lot of money buying cheap then going to the better ones in the long run anyway. I did the same thing with fishing equipment.