Branded Chinese Machines

[Singermania]

HI Greg,

You are right I was off thread, I was responding to points being made later in the topic.

I only ocassionally sell a new machine, sometimes they work straight out of the box sometimes they don't. But that's to do with many factors, like the material and thread that it was originally set up for or not set up at all. Other things happen in transit, I have machines running perfectly here, leave a large piece of cloth stitched half way thru under the foot and it gets to the other end and wont sew... tensions move, things get out of whack...not every time, but just sometimes.... I can't say that one brand or one country of origin is going to do that more or not.

So sorry to confuse the issue or cast clouds on anyones way of earning a living. My own firm belief is that there are varying qualities of Chinese machines in the same model. Whether they run straight out of the box I can't say. What I can tell you is that I import a good number of used, old, big Singers machines from the UK and USA.... like the 97-10, 144W305, 132K6, 45K, 7 class, 47k1 etc, very often they have material under the foot and thread hanging off them (so the person, me, at the other end knows how to thread it) and I find almost without exception that these machines sew straight out of the crate.

Does anyone know anything about Singer 3 class machines.??

Hope that helps, sorry again for getting off topic.

Best Regards Steve

I just want to make sure I'munderstanding and reading this thread correctly;

Outof the box untouched factory direct brand name Chinese equipment is BETTER today than out of the box factory direct Pfaff, Durkopp Adler and Singer? I'm reading comparisons for used German, Japanese & American made equipment vs. new out of the box brand names from China, am I correct?

The ONLY reason I'm asking this is because I feel the original question of this thread is not being adequately responded to, and that is "What machine new out of the box factory direct is going to work."

I know a machine is only as strong as who is setting it up (stand included) and supporting it, but that was not the question on the table. Not everybody has a sewing machine dealer who lives on thier block, so I do understand the basis of the question.

[amuckart]

Thanks Gregg, you're right about my original question, and my circumstance.

I've got some second hand industrials, Singers, a Seiko flatbed, a Pfaff 35-4, a #6 Pearson, a Pedersen outsoler, and I've got access to good motors at a price I'm willing to pay (refurbed Quick Rotan), and okay motors at half that. I can weld, so if it really comes down to it I can build a pedestal stand.

What I don't have in New Zealand is a second-hand market for 441 or 205 type machines. What's left of the NZ saddlery industry seems to run on Pearson #6s and ancient Adler 205s, and you pretty much have to wait for someone to die before you can get your hands one one of those. NZ being a small place with a culture of keeping machines running way way after they should have died and never throwing anything away means that the second-hand machines that make it onto our local ebay equivalent are often quite worn out.

This means I'm after something new, but lacking the budget to get a new Juki or Seiko (for that money I'll buy a rebuilt Campbell from Dan) I'm looking at Chinese clones. I know someone who bought a machine from a brand that's popular on this board that not only didn't sew out of the box, it needed a near complete rebuild to work almost acceptably. Fortunately they had access to a friendly local machinist or they'd have been left with a multi-thousand dollar boat anchor. What that taught me is that it's the person you buy the machine from, not the brand on it that's important. I don't mind taking a punt on a second-hand machine that hasn't cost me a lot and might or might not sew without a whole lot of work and spare parts, but if I'm going to buy a new machine it has to Just Work.

Now, I could get Steve or Bob to ship me a machine from the USA, but the shipping and customs charges add enough to make that proposition unappealing compared to, say, buying a Highlead which are considered expensive but come with a good out-of-the-box reputation and head-only are actually cheaper than, say, a Cobra class 4 head from Steve by the time it's been shipped here from the US. Unless I luck into a good used 441 clone I'll probably end up going the Highlead route, just for cost efficiency.

Cheers.

[CowboyBob]

Steve,

Your asking about a Singer 3,I have a few myself along with it's little brother & sister machine.

I did have the 3 sewing alittle but the tension seemed to be a problem.

Bob

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I'll put my two cents in, and try to tackle this question. Allow me to say up front that this is not hard and fast rule, 100% accurate, but a general overview of how equipment is showing up new out of the box.

I don't want to go into a history lesson taking things way back 30 years the way things were 'back in the day' that have little to no bearing on today's World, but we do have to have an idea of where we are coming from.

Lets start about twelve years ago, before the real boom of Chinese machines coming in. Almost the majority of market was dominated byJapanese and German made machines. American made products were and are still part of the picture. Taiwan is also part of the picture,not to leave anybody out and before someone wants to publicly flog me. Let me say this; when they when the first Japanese machines first starting coming in, they DID have problems back in the mid to late '60s. But, they corrected them, they made improvements to design and manufacturing. The German stuff was a bit ahead of the curve new. Both ever since have been very stable, and consistent. The difference between a good and bad machine was almost indistinguishable; they were all really good. And tey are today, with good quality control.

Now, with the Chinese, over the past eight years with a lot of machines coming in and being made,factories popping up left and right, it's is a mixed bag to say the least; quality is all over the place. There really is A, B, C quality, with different price points. Good machines may work out ofthe box, or need some setup, poor quality is kind of like "why did they even bother to put this into a box and send it?"

Furthermore, some machine have the same problems out of the box they did eight years ago. There is spotty stability, or consistency; you can get a really good machine one time, the next time, you may need to spend quite a bit of time to get the machine properly setup. Often, as clearly stated all over the place here andon this thread, a great deal of setup and replacing new parts with good new parts is required if you are a dealer who stands behind your warranty.

So, the gist of all of this; do you stand a better chance with out of the box machines from Germany / Czech Republic, Japan as opposed to say China? The short answer is yes, but it's really up to the individual on what they value and where thier money is going, the machine in question, their ability to means to setup properly, availbility ofreplacement parts, etc. Certain brand machines in some regions are easier to support than others. No hard and fast answers.

Hope this helps, and ANYBODY feel free to elaborate on this post, poke holes in it, insult my mother because I hurt someone's feelings or whatever else you may feel the need todo after reading this. This is assuming yuou even made it this far. Thanks!

Edited July 27, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Wizcrafts]

Hope this helps, and ANYBODY feel free to elaborate on this post, poke holes in it, insult my mother because I hurt someone's feelings or whatever else you may feel the need todo after reading this. This is assuming yuou even made it this far. Thanks!

What a refreshing display of honesty! Your revelations are much appreciated Greg. Perhaps, first time buyers of machines sold by our member dealers, yourself included, will have a better understanding of what it takes to get one of the clone machines into good working condition, for sewing thick leather with heavy thread.

The bottom line I take away from this is that it is not the nameplate on the machine, but, the dealer/mechanic who sets it up, that makes a particular leather sewing machine what it is. The dealers who stand behind their work and offer phone assistance to their buyers is something that cannot be replaced by a cheaper deal from a drop shipper.

This doesn't help our original poster though. All I can say about his dilemma is that the choices boil down to these:

1. Buy the best quality level machine direct from China and take your chances. If you have a machine shop you can make replacement parts.
2. Buy a machine that has been setup and modified to work by a leather machine dealer and pay the extra shipping and Customs cost, knowing that the machine will perform as desired for a longer time than might be the case, out of the box.

Once a 441 or 205 clone has been gone over and all loose screws tightened and timing set, as long as the box isn't dropped from a truck or loading dock crane, the machine should arrive in the same condition it was in when sent out to you. American and Canadian screw drivers are usually made of very good steel and can apply a lot of torque to screws that arrive loose from China. As to why their heavy sewing machines arrive out of time, with loose screws, rough castings and missing paint, only the Chinese builders know the answer to that question.That's probably where the A-B-C quality differences lie.

[Art]

I does make a difference which factory made the base machine. There are some factories that make "improvements" to the base machines. The good factories make improvements basically for form and function. The lower level factories make changes to reduce costs. I am not talking about sewing parts, the feet, dogs, hooks, needle bars etc. I am referring to the rods, connectors, castings, shaft couplers et al. The real item here is that nobody makes ALL of this stuff, I would be suprised if the average sewing machine factory over there made 30% of their product, some times a LOT less. Even the really No.1 top factories don't make any of some of their machines, except maybe the nameplate, usually because someone else does it better than them and they know it. You don't want a machine from a factory that chases costs to compete on price, the machines work but are designed for the trade where their are mechanics on site or call.

The one thing the Chinese have is the ability to stop and change direction on a dime. If they are making something wrong, they can stop and start making it right on a dime. The dealers and sewing factories let them know when the parts start failing left and right. The machine factory made an improvement or their parts source did. The dealer calls (because his mechanic tells him that they changed this part and when I tightened it, it cracked) his exporter, who calls the factory and in their most pleasant voice reams them a new one (in Chinese this is truly amazing), the factory calls the parts supplier (in Chinese you get the feeling of people lining up against the wall and guns going off) and the parts supplier corrects the problem (goes back to old method) and soon parts are available. The new parts are shipped to the dealer, who has to re-prep the machines to include a 3 or 4 hour R&R of the part that is of course as far down in the machine as it can get. These are usually very expensive parts, which precludes buying them here (you don't think they want to "improve" a "cheap" part, where's the money in that?).

This is why I like to know which factory the machine was made in. I want a 441 that is as close to the last 441 (partswise) that came out of Juki as possible. Your dealer is your lifeline, but it is reassuring to know that your sewing machine repair guy can order you up a part from Superior or Consew if you need it.

Art

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I does make a difference which factory made the base machine...The one thing the Chinese have is the ability to stop and change direction on a dime. If they are making something wrong, they can stop and start making it right on a dime.

Art

The ability to stop on a dime and change thing up is not all that great, in some cases. Often, these not so improvements are not mentioned in parts books, to the suppliers, parts people, or anybody else. You find out when it breaks, reorder parts, and they show up looking nothing like what you are replacing, where they 'made improvements'.

MANY times, we can order parts for machines, and have no idea what parts they decided to install on the machine that day. So when you try to match it up, it does not and never will fit or work with the replacement part. Or you have to use a new component group. Or you have to order parts OEM that your Chinese knock off is modeled after. I can think of some companies that made the same model machines for decades, like Pfaff, Singer, Adler, etc. You can get parts new that will go into and work on machines that are over 40 years old. Some of the new Chinese machines your lucky if you can order parts from the factory for last years model. Even if the parts are correct, they then have to be fitted, and you better know what your doing.

I'm biting my lip here, and don't will not name names, but even some of the 'big' factories are doing this all the time, with new models showing up an others disappearing quickly. Just like factories, coming and going, in some cases.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

The ability to stop on a dime and change thing up is not all that great, in some cases. Often, these not so improvements are not mentioned in parts books, to the suppliers, parts people, or anybody else. You find out when it breaks, reorder parts, and they show up looking nothing like what you are replacing, where they 'made improvements'.

MANY times, we can order parts for machines, and have no idea what parts they decided to install on the machine that day. So when you try to match it up, it does not and never will fit or work with the replacement part. Or you have to use a new component group. Or you have to order parts OEM that your Chinese knock off is modeled after. I can think of some companies that made the same model machines for decades, like Pfaff, Singer, Adler, etc. You can get parts new that will go into and work on machines that are over 40 years old. Some of the new Chinese machines your lucky if you can order parts from the factory for last years model. Even if the parts are correct, they then have to be fitted, and you better know what your doing.

I'm biting my lip here, and don't will not name names, but even some of the 'big' factories are doing this all the time, with new models showing up an others disappearing quickly. Just like factories, coming and going, in some cases.

It's a heck of a thing to call a major US supplier to reorder a particular model under a WELL known brand name, only to be told that they are out of stock, the factory has been flattened, and there is no ETA for new stock.

[Art]

Hi Gregg,

Milled slots are fun, they never seem to be in the same place or the same depth, usually it doesn't matter, but occasionally they go a wee bit too far.

The thing about Chinese iron (machine tools too) is once you get it up to spec and running, it ain't bad. I have a Taiwan made 15" Lathe that took a little work to get it to .0005 about 14 years ago, it has held up this long.

Art

The ability to stop on a dime and change thing up is not all that great, in some cases. Often, these not so improvements are not mentioned in parts books, to the suppliers, parts people, or anybody else. You find out when it breaks, reorder parts, and they show up looking nothing like what you are replacing, where they 'made improvements'.

MANY times, we can order parts for machines, and have no idea what parts they decided to install on the machine that day. So when you try to match it up, it does not and never will fit or work with the replacement part. Or you have to use a new component group. Or you have to order parts OEM that your Chinese knock off is modeled after. I can think of some companies that made the same model machines for decades, like Pfaff, Singer, Adler, etc. You can get parts new that will go into and work on machines that are over 40 years old. Some of the new Chinese machines your lucky if you can order parts from the factory for last years model. Even if the parts are correct, they then have to be fitted, and you better know what your doing.

I'm biting my lip here, and don't will not name names, but even some of the 'big' factories are doing this all the time, with new models showing up an others disappearing quickly. Just like factories, coming and going, in some cases.

[Singermania]

Hi Bob, thanks for replying, I'm very jealous of your collection. I take it that they are the no 1 and 2 on the forground. I would love to have a full set right up to the big 8 class, so far only a 3, 5 and about eight 7 class. If you ever want to sell any of your treasures or know of any more then pls let me know. Best Regards Steve.

Bob

[Singermania]

HI Guys, I'm hearing a lot of talk about the end result being down to the dealer?? you really think so? Do you really think you are going to make a crocodile handbag out of a pig's ear? Look if the things arrive poorly adjusted, with paint missing, rough castings, moving parts that don't move then that lack of quality is going to carry on thru to the materials. The metal will be poor, the casting weak, crappy bearings. Sure a dab hand might get it going nicely, but will it be around to challenge the big old Singers and Adlers in 50 years time? But if you want a Chinese machine, then go and buy one, stop talking about it, do it. Best Regards Steve

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

HI Guys, I'm hearing a lot of talk about the end result being down to the dealer?? you really think so? Do you really think you are going to make a crocodile handbag out of a pig's ear? Look if the things arrive poorly adjusted, with paint missing, rough castings, moving parts that don't move then that lack of quality is going to carry on thru to the materials. The metal will be poor, the casting weak, crappy bearings. Sure a dab hand might get it going nicely, but will it be around to challenge the big old Singers and Adlers in 50 years time? But if you want a Chinese machine, then go and buy one, stop talking about it, do it. Best Regards Steve

That's exactly the same stance people 1st took when the Japanese equipment first started showing up in America in the mid to late '60s. I don't think I have to tell you how the story goes from there for companies like Juki, Seiko, Mitsubishi and the like, or how people feel about Japanese equipment today.

Don't get me wrong, I still feel that Singer from the '60s and before sets the standard for quality. Even with technology advances in metal working and fabrication, it somehow seem like we are going back wards with these some of these new sewing machines.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Art]

I haven't seen much "new" in sewing machines in the last 40 years. Except the Shoe Industry, there is some innovation going on there. All of the Chinese machines we use today hearken back to American/UK (Singer was really International but the US and GB will claim it), German, Swiss, Italian, and later Japanese ancestry. There is some innovation coming out of OZ for sail making machines and other one off kind of devices, but copies of previously successful machines are the forte of the Asian countries. Lets face it, the leather industry is pretty much gone and machines of yesterday (and remakes of them) don't make up 1-2 percent of machine sales (except shoes and that is declining). We should be happy that someone is making machines that can be used as a base for innovative dealers to modify into successful leather sewing machines, and support the same. If it was a land office business, you would see more than four dealers at the top of the page.

Art

That's exactly the same stance people 1st took when the Japanese equipment first started showing up in America in the mid to late '60s. I don't think I have to tell you how the story goes from there for companies like Juki, Seiko, Mitsubishi and the like, or how people feel about Japanese equipment today.

Don't get me wrong, I still feel that Singer from the '60s and before sets the standard for quality. Even with technology advances in metal working and fabrication, it somehow seem like we are going back wards with these some of these new sewing machines.

[Singermania]

Well nothing is set in stone, things change.... Japan got into manufacturing, the the first wave was cheap and poor, hence the saying "jap crap" , they learned from that and came back with quality. The Chinese or whoever can do the same. My point is that if a machine comes to you as quality, it is quality, if it comes rough then it is rough ... right to the core.... sure you can tinker but the base materials you can't change. Austrailia's economy is pretty much unaffected by the WFC however Europe and the US have taken a punch, if I lived in one of those places I'd be thinking of buying home made.

I know the original question was about Chinese, however there are other countries that manufacture.... Japan, India, Pakistan and Russia. My rule of thumb is that if it comes to you rough then it is rough.

[Singermania]

buuuuuutt............... if I was setting up my upholstery business again and I had the choise of a $5800 consew K6 clone or an Asian manufactured clone at say $2500 and that came with reverse, cheap spares and great design (its a copy of a great design after all) then I'd probably buy the cheaper machine.... Lets face it I could buy two and set the other one up witha different colour or weight thread, or a welt foot etc. The US and Britain have fantastic heritage in sewing machines, the mighty Singer company spanned pretty much every country in the world, throw a dart at the map of the world and Singer was most likely there. I'm a bit old fashioned, a bit nationalistic and would like to see that heritage continued and even rebuilt. Though I sold my own old upholstery machine recently, it was Japanese, I really didn't give a thought to where it came from whilst I was using it.

Getting back to the original thread, if I was having a new machine shipped to me, I wouldn't be concerned about setting it up or adjusting it, because I can do that. Would I be worried about the quality??? if I paid half the price of a Consew or Juki (probably made in China anyway) then ...no .... I wouldn't be worried about the quality either. My advice would be to buy whatever machine appeals to you, whatever machine is in your price range, if you don't have skills buy what can be easily maintained, repaired and parts sourced ie a good dealer to back you up. If that's a Highlead, then excellent. If you want to be a bit of a collector like me and like to go out to your building and admire your antiques and tinker with them, then buy an old Singer BUSMC or Adler.

Whatever machine you have, be proud of it, its taken over a hundred years to produce it, keep it clean, oil it everyday. I've attached some pictures of my latest aquisition, its a Singer 47KSV10 extra long arm walking foot zig zag sail maker's machine with puller. I fell in love with it, these things make a great racket when they run and were really designed for the heavy old canvas days of sailing. I've never seen another, the show off in me thinks it may be the only one in existance, pls let me know if you have any knowledge of them.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

WOW!! Looks like something that came out of a local engineering shop. Oddly my comprehensive needle book lists nothing above a 47K5 and no KSV models at all. There are no equivalent WSV models either so it might be a one-off that was never listed.

buuuuuutt............... if I was setting up my upholstery business again and I had the choise of a $5800 consew K6 clone or an Asian manufactured clone at say $2500 and that came with reverse, cheap spares and great design (its a copy of a great design after all) then I'd probably buy the cheaper machine.... Lets face it I could buy two and set the other one up witha different colour or weight thread, or a welt foot etc. The US and Britain have fantastic heritage in sewing machines, the mighty Singer company spanned pretty much every country in the world, throw a dart at the map of the world and Singer was most likely there. I'm a bit old fashioned, a bit nationalistic and would like to see that heritage continued and even rebuilt. Though I sold my own old upholstery machine recently, it was Japanese, I really didn't give a thought to where it came from whilst I was using it.

Getting back to the original thread, if I was having a new machine shipped to me, I wouldn't be concerned about setting it up or adjusting it, because I can do that. Would I be worried about the quality??? if I paid half the price of a Consew or Juki (probably made in China anyway) then ...no .... I wouldn't be worried about the quality either. My advice would be to buy whatever machine appeals to you, whatever machine is in your price range, if you don't have skills buy what can be easily maintained, repaired and parts sourced ie a good dealer to back you up. If that's a Highlead, then excellent. If you want to be a bit of a collector like me and like to go out to your building and admire your antiques and tinker with them, then buy an old Singer BUSMC or Adler.

Whatever machine you have, be proud of it, its taken over a hundred years to produce it, keep it clean, oil it everyday. I've attached some pictures of my latest aquisition, its a Singer 47KSV10 extra long arm walking foot zig zag sail maker's machine with puller. I fell in love with it, these things make a great racket when they run and were really designed for the heavy old canvas days of sailing. I've never seen another, the show off in me thinks it may be the only one in existance, pls let me know if you have any knowledge of them.

[Trox]

Hi Singermania,

That was some piece of Iron; it cannot be many of those around. It is a Special Version. How long it is. Does it sew, as it should?

What about a newer (but still old) Singer 144W-305, do you still find use for them Down Under. I have a blue one that needs a life. It is no marked for them in Scandinavia. I am thinking about refurbishing it, fitting a modern motor on and exporting it to somewhere needed. It is a very good US made machine and it deserves a life. A new rotary hook and a clean, it is good as new.

About the original tread;

The Chinese and Japanese are very different people. The Japanese always take pride in producing the best quality. But the Chinese just care about making money; they never spend any and eating rice with fish sauce 7 days a week. A Chinese will never buy anything from a restaurant unless he can see they use fresh foods. That is why every restaurant in China has food on display.

The Chinese have started to buy their own product, so I feel it is safe to. This is the best indicator of good quality. Then again export machines, I will only buy from the dealers I know stand behind their machines. I will never risk buy something out of the box on EBay to save a few dollars. I do not think any Chinese would either.

Trox

[Singermania]

Hi Trox,

I've jumped the gun a bit as the machine hasn't arrrived as yet, I'm hotly awaiting its appearance. I understand it does sew. Its basically (by the look of it and by the numbers) a 47k1 cut in half with a big beam shoved in to extend it and a puller attached to help things along. I believe it would do the same job as the 47k1, that's sailmaking. Your 144W305 is a good machine, I believe they have a reverse on the treadle, thats a plus out here. The problem is I can't import just one machine at a time as the port handling, customs clearance and delivery kill the deal. If we could bypass those costs I 'd grab it in a heartbeat.

[CowboyBob]

That's a nice looking 47K you got there.It's probably a K5,I've had a few in the past & just missed buying one cheap a couple of months ago.Be careful with her as parts are like hens teeth.

Bob

[Singermania]

thanks Bob, but isn't the K5 a rope binding machine or am I thinking of the K3.. Its interesting these machines were built in small numbers, when other machines were being made in hundreds they were made in tens. I dont have the 47k yet, but the badge on the side (photo of) says 47KSV10. I used to have a 47K1 some while back and sold it to another collector and have been trying to replace it ever since. I've attached a photo of an old 47K1 for anyone interested, also another interesting photo came across recently of a shoe machine Regards Steve

[CowboyBob]

Years ago we had some K5's so maybe a K3 is for ropes-I've never seen one & didn't even hear of a K3 B4.

Bob

[Singermania]

Hi Bob, the Smithsonian has some nice pictures of the K3 sewing rope together, though I've forgotten how to access it these days. Do you do any Singer, Alder or Pfaff spares.? Regards Steve

[CowboyBob]

Steve, If your talikng about the old machines,I don't have any spare parts.We even had to make bobbins for the 47's we extended the 7 class bobbins.I'll have to poke around the Smithsonian .

[amuckart]

HI Guys, I'm hearing a lot of talk about the end result being down to the dealer?? you really think so?

That's the consistent story I'm hearing. There's one, maybe two Chinese factories producing machines that're good to go out of the box, a bunch producing stuff that's basically sound in terms of material, parts and design, but with nothing in the way of assembly QA, and a whole lot churning out utter junk. The good ones are good to go out of the box with perhaps very minor tuning, the junk is going to be junk no matter what but the stuff in the middle that's basically sound but often badly assembled can be made good by people willing to go through the assembly QA. That's where people like Cowboy Bob and Cobra Steve come in. The thing is that you can buy the same machine's they're selling through someone else and get something that's unusable, because it's the work they put in that makes the machines good, and I think there's enough evidence from people using them to show that they are good, but only if you get them from the right person.

Do you really think you are going to make a crocodile handbag out of a pig's ear? Look if the things arrive poorly adjusted, with paint missing, rough castings, moving parts that don't move then that lack of quality is going to carry on thru to the materials. The metal will be poor, the casting weak, crappy bearings. Sure a dab hand might get it going nicely, but will it be around to challenge the big old Singers and Adlers in 50 years time? But if you want a Chinese machine, then go and buy one, stop talking about it, do it. Best Regards Steve

I don't think that necessarily holds true, I think there's a class of machine made to good designs out of good materials (after all, the materials aren't exactly the difficult bit, 19th century iron and steel did just fine thanks) just badly assembled and spottily QAed at the factory. For those ones I think there's a very good chance they'll last the distance, after all they're faithful copies of good designs. They might never be as good as the Singers and Adlers were, but hell, Singer basically doesn't exist any more, and even Adlers aren't as good as Adlers used to be.

I've got a handful of 'Big Old Singers' and they're beautiful pieces of work, but they're getting on for 100 years old, and it shows.

[CowboyBob]

20-30 yrs ago all we had to sell were the Adlers & Juki's @ around $4,800.00 now let me ask..how many people here would pay that much for a 12" machine today?

WHEN you can buy a machine for 1/2 the price w/a 16" arm that still will sew as thick as the Adler or Juki?Price sells I haven't sold a new Juki or Adler in maybe 7 yrs.

8 yrs ago I had some used Juki 441's & we sold the for $3,500.00 ea(they were real nice)but I doubt if I could get that for them today.

SO the big question will the new Chinese machine last like the old Singers,Juki's & Adlers,only time will tell but if they last for 25yrs you'd still be ahead of the game.

It would be great if somehow machines could be made here & they can except I'm 100% positive they would be at least $6,000.00 or more & considering Adlers aren't selling @ $5,000.00 anymore I don't think it's worth trying to build machines here.

It also seems like most people are shopping price nowadays too.Heck I can't even sell a good used home machine for $50.00 because Walmart has new clunkers for $69.00

they won't last 6mon & people realize what they get after they take it back a couple of times or call me & I tell them I can't work on them because I know how there built & know they'll bring it back in a couple of days.needing retimed.

There is difference in quality of machines coming from China & Walmart sells on price only,along with alot of the machines on ebay are the low quality type. & most Dealers on this board are selling quality machines that have been checked over before they are shipped.

SO that's my $.02

Bob