Branded Chinese Machines

[Art]

I does make a difference which factory made the base machine. There are some factories that make "improvements" to the base machines. The good factories make improvements basically for form and function. The lower level factories make changes to reduce costs. I am not talking about sewing parts, the feet, dogs, hooks, needle bars etc. I am referring to the rods, connectors, castings, shaft couplers et al. The real item here is that nobody makes ALL of this stuff, I would be suprised if the average sewing machine factory over there made 30% of their product, some times a LOT less. Even the really No.1 top factories don't make any of some of their machines, except maybe the nameplate, usually because someone else does it better than them and they know it. You don't want a machine from a factory that chases costs to compete on price, the machines work but are designed for the trade where their are mechanics on site or call.

The one thing the Chinese have is the ability to stop and change direction on a dime. If they are making something wrong, they can stop and start making it right on a dime. The dealers and sewing factories let them know when the parts start failing left and right. The machine factory made an improvement or their parts source did. The dealer calls (because his mechanic tells him that they changed this part and when I tightened it, it cracked) his exporter, who calls the factory and in their most pleasant voice reams them a new one (in Chinese this is truly amazing), the factory calls the parts supplier (in Chinese you get the feeling of people lining up against the wall and guns going off) and the parts supplier corrects the problem (goes back to old method) and soon parts are available. The new parts are shipped to the dealer, who has to re-prep the machines to include a 3 or 4 hour R&R of the part that is of course as far down in the machine as it can get. These are usually very expensive parts, which precludes buying them here (you don't think they want to "improve" a "cheap" part, where's the money in that?).

This is why I like to know which factory the machine was made in. I want a 441 that is as close to the last 441 (partswise) that came out of Juki as possible. Your dealer is your lifeline, but it is reassuring to know that your sewing machine repair guy can order you up a part from Superior or Consew if you need it.

Art

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I does make a difference which factory made the base machine...The one thing the Chinese have is the ability to stop and change direction on a dime. If they are making something wrong, they can stop and start making it right on a dime.

Art

The ability to stop on a dime and change thing up is not all that great, in some cases. Often, these not so improvements are not mentioned in parts books, to the suppliers, parts people, or anybody else. You find out when it breaks, reorder parts, and they show up looking nothing like what you are replacing, where they 'made improvements'.

MANY times, we can order parts for machines, and have no idea what parts they decided to install on the machine that day. So when you try to match it up, it does not and never will fit or work with the replacement part. Or you have to use a new component group. Or you have to order parts OEM that your Chinese knock off is modeled after. I can think of some companies that made the same model machines for decades, like Pfaff, Singer, Adler, etc. You can get parts new that will go into and work on machines that are over 40 years old. Some of the new Chinese machines your lucky if you can order parts from the factory for last years model. Even if the parts are correct, they then have to be fitted, and you better know what your doing.

I'm biting my lip here, and don't will not name names, but even some of the 'big' factories are doing this all the time, with new models showing up an others disappearing quickly. Just like factories, coming and going, in some cases.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

The ability to stop on a dime and change thing up is not all that great, in some cases. Often, these not so improvements are not mentioned in parts books, to the suppliers, parts people, or anybody else. You find out when it breaks, reorder parts, and they show up looking nothing like what you are replacing, where they 'made improvements'.

MANY times, we can order parts for machines, and have no idea what parts they decided to install on the machine that day. So when you try to match it up, it does not and never will fit or work with the replacement part. Or you have to use a new component group. Or you have to order parts OEM that your Chinese knock off is modeled after. I can think of some companies that made the same model machines for decades, like Pfaff, Singer, Adler, etc. You can get parts new that will go into and work on machines that are over 40 years old. Some of the new Chinese machines your lucky if you can order parts from the factory for last years model. Even if the parts are correct, they then have to be fitted, and you better know what your doing.

I'm biting my lip here, and don't will not name names, but even some of the 'big' factories are doing this all the time, with new models showing up an others disappearing quickly. Just like factories, coming and going, in some cases.

It's a heck of a thing to call a major US supplier to reorder a particular model under a WELL known brand name, only to be told that they are out of stock, the factory has been flattened, and there is no ETA for new stock.

[Art]

Hi Gregg,

Milled slots are fun, they never seem to be in the same place or the same depth, usually it doesn't matter, but occasionally they go a wee bit too far.

The thing about Chinese iron (machine tools too) is once you get it up to spec and running, it ain't bad. I have a Taiwan made 15" Lathe that took a little work to get it to .0005 about 14 years ago, it has held up this long.

Art

The ability to stop on a dime and change thing up is not all that great, in some cases. Often, these not so improvements are not mentioned in parts books, to the suppliers, parts people, or anybody else. You find out when it breaks, reorder parts, and they show up looking nothing like what you are replacing, where they 'made improvements'.

MANY times, we can order parts for machines, and have no idea what parts they decided to install on the machine that day. So when you try to match it up, it does not and never will fit or work with the replacement part. Or you have to use a new component group. Or you have to order parts OEM that your Chinese knock off is modeled after. I can think of some companies that made the same model machines for decades, like Pfaff, Singer, Adler, etc. You can get parts new that will go into and work on machines that are over 40 years old. Some of the new Chinese machines your lucky if you can order parts from the factory for last years model. Even if the parts are correct, they then have to be fitted, and you better know what your doing.

I'm biting my lip here, and don't will not name names, but even some of the 'big' factories are doing this all the time, with new models showing up an others disappearing quickly. Just like factories, coming and going, in some cases.

[Singermania]

Hi Bob, thanks for replying, I'm very jealous of your collection. I take it that they are the no 1 and 2 on the forground. I would love to have a full set right up to the big 8 class, so far only a 3, 5 and about eight 7 class. If you ever want to sell any of your treasures or know of any more then pls let me know. Best Regards Steve.

Bob

[Singermania]

HI Guys, I'm hearing a lot of talk about the end result being down to the dealer?? you really think so? Do you really think you are going to make a crocodile handbag out of a pig's ear? Look if the things arrive poorly adjusted, with paint missing, rough castings, moving parts that don't move then that lack of quality is going to carry on thru to the materials. The metal will be poor, the casting weak, crappy bearings. Sure a dab hand might get it going nicely, but will it be around to challenge the big old Singers and Adlers in 50 years time? But if you want a Chinese machine, then go and buy one, stop talking about it, do it. Best Regards Steve

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

HI Guys, I'm hearing a lot of talk about the end result being down to the dealer?? you really think so? Do you really think you are going to make a crocodile handbag out of a pig's ear? Look if the things arrive poorly adjusted, with paint missing, rough castings, moving parts that don't move then that lack of quality is going to carry on thru to the materials. The metal will be poor, the casting weak, crappy bearings. Sure a dab hand might get it going nicely, but will it be around to challenge the big old Singers and Adlers in 50 years time? But if you want a Chinese machine, then go and buy one, stop talking about it, do it. Best Regards Steve

That's exactly the same stance people 1st took when the Japanese equipment first started showing up in America in the mid to late '60s. I don't think I have to tell you how the story goes from there for companies like Juki, Seiko, Mitsubishi and the like, or how people feel about Japanese equipment today.

Don't get me wrong, I still feel that Singer from the '60s and before sets the standard for quality. Even with technology advances in metal working and fabrication, it somehow seem like we are going back wards with these some of these new sewing machines.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Art]

I haven't seen much "new" in sewing machines in the last 40 years. Except the Shoe Industry, there is some innovation going on there. All of the Chinese machines we use today hearken back to American/UK (Singer was really International but the US and GB will claim it), German, Swiss, Italian, and later Japanese ancestry. There is some innovation coming out of OZ for sail making machines and other one off kind of devices, but copies of previously successful machines are the forte of the Asian countries. Lets face it, the leather industry is pretty much gone and machines of yesterday (and remakes of them) don't make up 1-2 percent of machine sales (except shoes and that is declining). We should be happy that someone is making machines that can be used as a base for innovative dealers to modify into successful leather sewing machines, and support the same. If it was a land office business, you would see more than four dealers at the top of the page.

Art

That's exactly the same stance people 1st took when the Japanese equipment first started showing up in America in the mid to late '60s. I don't think I have to tell you how the story goes from there for companies like Juki, Seiko, Mitsubishi and the like, or how people feel about Japanese equipment today.

Don't get me wrong, I still feel that Singer from the '60s and before sets the standard for quality. Even with technology advances in metal working and fabrication, it somehow seem like we are going back wards with these some of these new sewing machines.

[Singermania]

Well nothing is set in stone, things change.... Japan got into manufacturing, the the first wave was cheap and poor, hence the saying "jap crap" , they learned from that and came back with quality. The Chinese or whoever can do the same. My point is that if a machine comes to you as quality, it is quality, if it comes rough then it is rough ... right to the core.... sure you can tinker but the base materials you can't change. Austrailia's economy is pretty much unaffected by the WFC however Europe and the US have taken a punch, if I lived in one of those places I'd be thinking of buying home made.

I know the original question was about Chinese, however there are other countries that manufacture.... Japan, India, Pakistan and Russia. My rule of thumb is that if it comes to you rough then it is rough.

[Singermania]

buuuuuutt............... if I was setting up my upholstery business again and I had the choise of a $5800 consew K6 clone or an Asian manufactured clone at say $2500 and that came with reverse, cheap spares and great design (its a copy of a great design after all) then I'd probably buy the cheaper machine.... Lets face it I could buy two and set the other one up witha different colour or weight thread, or a welt foot etc. The US and Britain have fantastic heritage in sewing machines, the mighty Singer company spanned pretty much every country in the world, throw a dart at the map of the world and Singer was most likely there. I'm a bit old fashioned, a bit nationalistic and would like to see that heritage continued and even rebuilt. Though I sold my own old upholstery machine recently, it was Japanese, I really didn't give a thought to where it came from whilst I was using it.

Getting back to the original thread, if I was having a new machine shipped to me, I wouldn't be concerned about setting it up or adjusting it, because I can do that. Would I be worried about the quality??? if I paid half the price of a Consew or Juki (probably made in China anyway) then ...no .... I wouldn't be worried about the quality either. My advice would be to buy whatever machine appeals to you, whatever machine is in your price range, if you don't have skills buy what can be easily maintained, repaired and parts sourced ie a good dealer to back you up. If that's a Highlead, then excellent. If you want to be a bit of a collector like me and like to go out to your building and admire your antiques and tinker with them, then buy an old Singer BUSMC or Adler.

Whatever machine you have, be proud of it, its taken over a hundred years to produce it, keep it clean, oil it everyday. I've attached some pictures of my latest aquisition, its a Singer 47KSV10 extra long arm walking foot zig zag sail maker's machine with puller. I fell in love with it, these things make a great racket when they run and were really designed for the heavy old canvas days of sailing. I've never seen another, the show off in me thinks it may be the only one in existance, pls let me know if you have any knowledge of them.