The Full Carve - How do you do it?

[Go2Tex]

OK, for all you pros out there, here's a topic that oughta get the juices flowing.... Now, obviously, carving a saddle takes time and carving a saddle completely takes lots of time. I'm mostly interested in how ya'll go about carving the seat. It has 3 panels that need carving and I have been starting out with a fully cased seat leather and keeping it wet with seran wrap where I'm not working. But, DAMN! It takes me about 5 hours to carve one panel, give or take an hour. Does everyone have this experience, or, do you just do it quicker? It just seems to me that there's gotta be an easier way......... like, maybe wet just the area where you're working and then do the other panels the following day.

I like this stuff, but is there an easier way?

[Leerwerker]

This thing of keeping leather cased at all cost is grossly overstated, I think. When I do a big project I always wet the whole piece of leather I am working on to prevent water stains. I wet the leather, give the water time to penetrate well, top it up now and again with a sponge as the surface dries out and too much moisture is wicked out of the leather.

Then when I stop for the day, the leather simply dries out and returns to the state that it left the tannery in: DRY! This repeated wet and dry cycle cannot take any oils out of the leather - the water does not leach anything out of the leather - it evaporates from the leather and leaves everything non-water behind in the leather.

When you are finally done, you have to put the oils and fats back into the leather in any case and I am sure the leather does not know whether it has been wet once or twice or five times since it left the tannery. It is that replacing of the fats and oils of the leather that I feel is far more important in the process.

Just my humble opinion and a few big projects worth of experience ....

[Go2Tex]

Thanks for your thoughts. Always good to hear what others have experienced. I just know that with heavy skirting, a good soaking and then let it dry slowly works the best. It just takes FOREVER and with saddle construction, the seat gets wet and shaped and dried and then wet the second time for refit and then carved. I like the first wetting, if possible, for carving but it's been almost impossible for me to manage it on a saddle seat.

I have to say, though, last night the leather gods were cooperating and the leather dried nice and slow for me. I had all the time I needed...... and I needed plenty. 4 hours to cut, bevel, detail and background one side! 9 flowers, a few leaves, a couple acantha features to fill in some dead ends and lots of vines and pedals and more background than I like, but that's just how it worked out this time.

[robert]

I dont make saddles, and the thickness and sheer size is a factor in the casing/carving discussion, but I was taught to case the entire project, then wet it from the back side as it needs it. If you add too much moisture to the carving, the fibers swell and you lose definition. By adding moisture from the back, it wicks up to the top and wets the carving surface more uniformly.

I know others that let the leather dry and then re-wet it later and it works fine for them - perhaps it is simply a factor of not adding too much moisture at one time.

[Hilly]

Thanks for your thoughts. Always good to hear what others have experienced. I just know that with heavy skirting, a good soaking and then let it dry slowly works the best. It just takes FOREVER and with saddle construction, the seat gets wet and shaped and dried and then wet the second time for refit and then carved. I like the first wetting, if possible, for carving but it's been almost impossible for me to manage it on a saddle seat.

I have to say, though, last night the leather gods were cooperating and the leather dried nice and slow for me. I had all the time I needed...... and I needed plenty. 4 hours to cut, bevel, detail and background one side! 9 flowers, a few leaves, a couple acantha features to fill in some dead ends and lots of vines and pedals and more background than I like, but that's just how it worked out this time.

Beautiful carving! You must have tons of experience doing this because it would probably take me at least 5 times that long to do one side. Seriously, one of those sides would take me at least 20 hours to get it finished with all that beveling. I guess I'd never be a good saddle maker.

[ClayB]

Well, however you did it, it sure worked out nice. I really admire people that can create patterns like that. I really like the way it all intertwines togeather. You also did a really nice job of carving it.

I think there is a lot of difference in carving leather. Some leather can take repeated wettings and drying out in between without to many ill effects. Other leather when let to dry and rewet seems to swell and erase previous carving, turns to mush, turns hard as a board, etc, etc. On a lot of the pictures I carve, especially the embossed ones, my leather dries out between steps because it has too. On a flat picture, or something like a seat on skirting, the old method of casing (soaking completely and letting it sweat in a bag for awhile) is probably going to give the best results, and covering parts of the seat with plastic is going to keep the parts you aren't working on at the time from drying out. When I cant finish at one time (which is almost always) I cover the piece with plastic and if it's going to be a long time before i get back to it, stick it in the fridge. I also spray water on the piece I am working on as it dries out, from the back if it's not glued to something, or from the front. That has worked best for me. I will be interested in hearing what other do to solve your problem.

[Go2Tex]

Thanks. The pattern was cut down from a previous one for a 16 inch seat. This one was 14. I spent tons of time on the original working out the flow and several hours making it work for this seat. Everytime I do one I think it's the best and then the next time I pick it up to use it I end up redoing much of it. I guess that's natural. Once I carve it, I see problems and things that didn't work well. The intertwining vines, or overlaping vines, allows for the flower circles to be placed closer and makes it easier to adapt to an odd shape, like a seat or cantle or whatever. Once you have a the basic pattern of flow for the overlap from one circle to the next, you just keep repeating it from one circle to the next. I use a piece of viewfoil film with my circle pattern on it and a few other cheater features, like the swirls and leaves. Mylar drafting film works the best for making patterns, by the way, but is sure is expensive, now that I'm buying it myself.

[ClayB]

Thanks for sharing some of how you go about developing your patterns. Someday I'd like to see a thread here on the different ways people go about doing that. Maybe even some step by steps, hint, hint

[Ian]

Man, you saddle guys are the true artists of the leather world. I'm trying to think of any other single item that involes as much work and detail, and I can't. Amazing work indeed.

[BrianHochstrat]

You have already received some good advice, but here is how I go about it, after I have fitted the seat I flatten it and let it dry overnight, I rewet the whole thing( not saturated, just some color) and cut my design, and then just rewet the areas as I tool. However, once the area is tooled I try not to get it wet again, even when I block the seat in I only dampen it in the areas I have to, in the blank areas I can go ahead and saturate it. This will help protect the crispness of the carving. Hopefully that all makes sense. -Brian

[Go2Tex]

Thanks Brian. Interesting way of doing it. Might save some time if I just dunk one side at a time the next morning. Like you say, just give it some color. Not so much time wasted waiting for it to dry enough to tool. Ditto on not re-wetting the carving but trying to get a carved seat back into shape to fit the tree can be a challenge. I try to wet it down on the back side but it bleeds through a bit.

Any tips on dealing with the inevitable stretch from a large carved part like a seat? The fit is so crucial but once it's carved it's like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube.

[steveh]

Thanks. The pattern was cut down from a previous one for a 16 inch seat. This one was 14. I spent tons of time on the original working out the flow and several hours making it work for this seat. Everytime I do one I think it's the best and then the next time I pick it up to use it I end up redoing much of it. I guess that's natural. Once I carve it, I see problems and things that didn't work well. The intertwining vines, or overlaping vines, allows for the flower circles to be placed closer and makes it easier to adapt to an odd shape, like a seat or cantle or whatever. Once you have a the basic pattern of flow for the overlap from one circle to the next, you just keep repeating it from one circle to the next. I use a piece of viewfoil film with my circle pattern on it and a few other cheater features, like the swirls and leaves. Mylar drafting film works the best for making patterns, by the way, but is sure is expensive, now that I'm buying it myself.

Very nice work. What is viewfoil film with your circle pattern on it , all about?Please explain.

steve

[Go2Tex]

Viewfoil is a medium used in a photocopier to make overhead projector presentations. It is fairly firm, clear plastic on both sides, unlike mylar that has one or both sides with a surface that can take pencil or ink and is erasable. The viewfoil is great for laying over your wet piece of leather and finding your edges, or copying a pattern because it is perfectly clear and is not affected by the moisture, as would be tracing vellum. I use a fine point felt tip marker on the viewfoil. It will rub off, however, so be careful when turning it upside down for the reverse side, especially on wet leather. Use an indelible ink pen.

A circle pattern is the basic design element for Sheridan style carving. The vines and pedals swirl around the circle and terminate at the flower. Each circle flows to the next with connector vines, with other features interspersed to break up the monotony or fill in a open space. When laying out a design, a circle pattern can be placed under the design and traced, rather than using a compass. A piece of mylar or viewfoil can be layed over the design to check to see how it looks or if it fits, etc.

Filler features, like swirls or leaves can also be put on the viewfoil to aid in laying out your design.

[jonwatsabaugh]

Tex,

Very, very nice carving and tooling! As far as fitting the seat back in after all tooling is done, here's what works for me. While initially fitting and trimming the seat I make sure it's drawn in very tight. I draw spike the seat in 6 places. The rear concho ears, the srew hole at the base of the fork, and the front concho ear where the skirt meets the fork. I also "iron" the seat leather before the fitting begins to get some additional stretch. I do this by taking a very smooth hard wood slicker and burnishing the leather on the flesh side on my rock pulling from center out all the way around the piece. With these 6 places to re-index the seat it always fits back where I want it after its tooled. Hope this helps.

Jon

[Go2Tex]

Thanks for the ideas. I do the same thing except for the tempering on the flesh side. Be interesting to see that done. But, alas, the seat went back in, albeit very snug at the ears and it usually is for some reason. Might have to do some finesse on the ear cut but then, I usually do anyhow.

Spent the day tooling one fender. Tried that idea of wetting from the back side and all that did was make it uneven. Had to put both fenders back in the plastic bags to even out. That wasted time. ehem...... But, once I finally got started, about 1:00pm, all went well. and in a short 6.5 hours I had the following results.

And now it's Miller time! Actually Shiner time, but ya'll probably don't know what that is.....

[kseidel]

Finally had a few minutes to go back and read some old posts and found this one. First, nice carving.... We have seen this saddle finished and it is beautiful.

Clear-lay plastic film is a great clear plastic to use for pattern layout. It is available in large sheets from art supply stores. Using a permanant felt tip marker like a "Sharpie" and it will not rub off. You can use denatured alcohol to wipe it clean and re-use film for more patterns.

You are a pretty fast tooler to do a seat panel in 4.5 hours and a fender in 6. Nevertheless, it does dry out faster. I don't wet as thoroughly as some. Certainly deep into the fibers, but not completely thru the entire thickness. I only wet one panel at a time. If you don't wet as much you won't get sa much stretch. Here in WY. we have to deal with shrinkage more than stretch.... no humidity. Sometimes a seat will shrink as much as a full inch front to back! Not wetting as deep helps with that as well. Depending on the leather that you use, you may find that you can tool a great deal drier. In most cases each re-wetting will cause the tooling to swell and not stay as deep, so unless it is unavoidable, I keep the panel moist until finished. Re-wet and bag it overnight. The key is not to over-wet the partially tooled leather. I use a presure sprayer to wet leather for tooling, much finer and more consistant spray than a spritzer. I can apply a fine mist to the surface and within moments return to stamping. This more frequent but minute wetting wicks into the deeper fibers making deep re-wetting unnecessary. I get a lot of interuptions, and usually just put the piece in a plastic bag and when I get back to it (sometimes the next day) only a light spray and it is ready to stamp again.

Another tip, when drawing your patterns, make some flowers without full circles of vines all around. Let some flowers lay against the borders or the vines around other flowers without having their own full circle. It helps add variety and break up the "grid" look.

Keith

[Go2Tex]

Finally had a few minutes to go back and read some old posts and found this one. First, nice carving.... We have seen this saddle finished and it is beautiful.

Clear-lay plastic film is a great clear plastic to use for pattern layout. It is available in large sheets from art supply stores. Using a permanant felt tip marker like a "Sharpie" and it will not rub off. You can use denatured alcohol to wipe it clean and re-use film for more patterns.

You are a pretty fast tooler to do a seat panel in 4.5 hours and a fender in 6. Nevertheless, it does dry out faster. I don't wet as thoroughly as some. Certainly deep into the fibers, but not completely thru the entire thickness. I only wet one panel at a time. If you don't wet as much you won't get sa much stretch. Here in WY. we have to deal with shrinkage more than stretch.... no humidity. Sometimes a seat will shrink as much as a full inch front to back! Not wetting as deep helps with that as well. Depending on the leather that you use, you may find that you can tool a great deal drier. In most cases each re-wetting will cause the tooling to swell and not stay as deep, so unless it is unavoidable, I keep the panel moist until finished. Re-wet and bag it overnight. The key is not to over-wet the partially tooled leather. I use a presure sprayer to wet leather for tooling, much finer and more consistant spray than a spritzer. I can apply a fine mist to the surface and within moments return to stamping. This more frequent but minute wetting wicks into the deeper fibers making deep re-wetting unnecessary. I get a lot of interuptions, and usually just put the piece in a plastic bag and when I get back to it (sometimes the next day) only a light spray and it is ready to stamp again.

Another tip, when drawing your patterns, make some flowers without full circles of vines all around. Let some flowers lay against the borders or the vines around other flowers without having their own full circle. It helps add variety and break up the "grid" look.

Keith

Thanks again for the compliments and tips Keith. I don't have to worry too much about stretch or shrink on my seats down here, although I did get a little bit of stretch on this one. But it has been a real adventure moving from one area of the country where it's cool and wet to an area that is hot as hell and humid one day and dry as west texas the next. It's been weird and hard to get a handle on it but I was very pleased with the outcome on this project. It was slow drying but at least it did finally get there. Last year when we got down here it had been unusually wet and the leather would simply not dry. I have the option of taking the piece outside and letting it take in some hot sun rays to hurry it up a bit.

I will definitely follow your advice about not wetting all the way through and just one panel at a time. It will take all the stress out of it, not having to rush one panel before the others get too dry.

I also like your advice about the pattern grid look. I'll rework this one with that idea in mind next time. Right now I'm breathing a sigh of relief and enjoying the brief resbit. Got notified today that the saddle cleared customs and was delivered to the customer. WHEW! What a hassle that was. With a huge trade deficit, one would think the government would make international trade easier instead of making it more difficult. It was a nightmare of red tape and bureaucratic BS. But it's history now!

[texdeputy]

with that amount of carving it is going to take a long time. Your carvings are as good as any I have seen. don't know how long you have been doing this but I bet you will get faster over time. I like the spray bottle idea and the fact that you cover the area you are not carving with plastic wrap. keep up the great work. and I know what a shiner is.

[undeberg]

I have found that if you taper off water application for re-wetting purposes you don't have to worry about any water lines either. I bought a pump up sprayer and put it on the fine mist setting and I spray the boundary of where I'm carving with that a couple of times. This does result in a bit of rewetting on carved areas, but it's not a full saturation so it doesn't loose crispness due to swollen fibers. Basically, I'll dunk the area I'm going to work, and just mist the boundary a couple times to transition the leather.

[thecowboy7]

Your carvings are fantastic... and now I find myself craving a Shiner.

[SethJ]

If its going to be dyed dark,...no worries,..I just case the area I'm working with,......if it's going to be natural/ oiled,..I try and haul butt carving while its all cased.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Brent, I find that the way you do it is mostly the way I do it, with just a little difference. I fully case the leather then form it to the seat the same as most do. Once it is dry and formed, I began to lay out my patterns. After initial casing, I simply wet the seat over all with a spray of my "special mix" which consists of some distilled water mixed with some dish washing soap and Listerine, to keep the surface at a consistency that allows me to get a good carve and tool in. As for how I work each panel, if I can get it flat on my stamping plate, I do so, but; in the case of areas that do not lend themselves to flattening out, I mount the seat back on the tree, and mount the tree in my Modified Ole George. That allows me to position the area I want to work on at the best angle to get to it and tool. Not uncommon that I will have it on my bench and on my tree several times during the tooling process. I am attaching some pics of one I am working on presently. Please excuse the flash on the pictures, I haven't yet learned how to get nice pics that show the piece the way it really looks. This saddle as you can see is not finished, but; in various stages of stain.

Bob

[jbird]

Thanks for the ideas. I do the same thing except for the tempering on the flesh side. Be interesting to see that done. But, alas, the seat went back in, albeit very snug at the ears and it usually is for some reason. Might have to do some finesse on the ear cut but then, I usually do anyhow.

Spent the day tooling one fender. Tried that idea of wetting from the back side and all that did was make it uneven. Had to put both fenders back in the plastic bags to even out. That wasted time. ehem...... But, once I finally got started, about 1:00pm, all went well. and in a short 6.5 hours I had the following results.

And now it's Miller time! Actually Shiner time, but ya'll probably don't know what that is.....

Brent,

what is this flower you are carving? I can't recall seeing it before and its amazing!

[Go2Tex]

The flower is one of my own creation. Got tired of the same ol' flowers, so I came up with that one. I've since developed another one that works well also. I call it a petunia.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Go2Tex

[jbird]

The flower is one of my own creation. Got tired of the same ol' flowers, so I came up with that one. I've since developed another one that works well also. I call it a petunia.

Love it!!

Josh