Bowden Or Double C Tree?

[Horsecloud]

I am in the process of trying to find the correct saddle maker for me in my area. I was hoping to get some info from here.

I have three people that I have been given names of that make saddles.

One uses the Bowden tree, the other uses the Double C company and I am not sure of the other one but here is a link to where she gets them from. http://www.horsetack-supplies.com/onlinestore.php?homeinclude=catalog&category_id=28437&parent_id=28437

All three would use templates to fit my horse, but the last one only takes the measurements and sends it out to be made. This is the reason why I am leaning more towards the other two who actually get the tree and make them themselves.

I am also leaning towards the Bowden person since he can incorporate more of what I want in the saddle.

One question I have is that I have picked out a tree that best suits me, I am so inexperienced on this I don't know the answer to this question, will the tree that I have picked out be able to be made to my horse's specific measurements?

What are some things I need to know before I go ahead with anyone? I did read someplace that someone got a tree from Bowden and it didn't sit even on the table so he didn't want that one. How can I be assured that I don't get something like that?

ANY other info you can all throw my way will be much appreciated.

Thank you.

Also, should I just go with a ready made, name brand one if the trees I have given for considertation are not of great quality?

[Blake]

I am in the process of trying to find the correct saddle maker for me in my area. I was hoping to get some info from here.

I have three people that I have been given names of that make saddles.

One uses the Bowden tree, the other uses the Double C company and I am not sure of the other one but here is a link to where she gets them from. http://www.horsetack...parent_id=28437

All three would use templates to fit my horse, but the last one only takes the measurements and sends it out to be made. This is the reason why I am leaning more towards the other two who actually get the tree and make them themselves.

I am also leaning towards the Bowden person since he can incorporate more of what I want in the saddle.

One question I have is that I have picked out a tree that best suits me, I am so inexperienced on this I don't know the answer to this question, will the tree that I have picked out be able to be made to my horse's specific measurements?

What are some things I need to know before I go ahead with anyone? I did read someplace that someone got a tree from Bowden and it didn't sit even on the table so he didn't want that one. How can I be assured that I don't get something like that?

ANY other info you can all throw my way will be much appreciated.

Thank you.

Also, should I just go with a ready made, name brand one if the trees I have given for considertation are not of great quality?

Why not just order the tree your self from one of the makers on this forum. The quality can be vouched for and references are available. They will work with your templates. You get the highest quality tree and then you can choose your saddle maker.

There are some of the best saddle makers in the business that are members here so keep that in mind too.

Rod and Denise Nikkel have an excellent web site for tree information.

Kind Regards

Blake

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

There are some very good tree makers out there, Rod and Denise are in the top tier. Many others on this web sight also are in that level. As for Bowden, they are a production house, however; they will make your tree from templates that you send them. Their quality is decent and with a little prep make really good saddles. Prices are another thing. If you have a custom tree made from those that specialize in it, you will pay in the $600 range and wait about 6 mos. On the other hand from Bowden or some of the other middle of the road makers, you are in for about $300 and 8 to 12 weeks. I have used Bowden trees off and on for some time and like I said with a little prep, you get a good tree. I would personally rather use Rod and Denise, or Darc , or some of the others because when their trees arrive there is no prep, however; it is a matter of what your customer or your are willing to pay. As for buying your own tree and then having a saddle maker build you a saddle on it, well it is kind of like buying your own parts and going to a mechanic to have him fix your car. Good luck! You open up a can of worms. Because I guarrantee my work, and my customers that they will be satisfied with the end product, I do not use others "parts". It is my responsibility to make sure that a saddle fits and is what the customer is what they ordered.

Hope this helps.

Bob

[Blake]

As for buying your own tree and then having a saddle maker build you a saddle on it, well it is kind of like buying your own parts and going to a mechanic to have him fix your car. Good luck! You open up a can of worms. Because I guarrantee my work, and my customers that they will be satisfied with the end product, I do not use others "parts". It is my responsibility to make sure that a saddle fits and is what the customer is what they ordered.

Hope this helps.

Bob

I have no problem building on a customer supplied tree as long as it is made correctly and I still guarantee and stand behind my work. As far as fit, it is beyond my control when the customer supplies the tree and they understand that from the start.

I will also occasionally supply performance parts to my mechanic to have them installed on my truck. No Problem, and he stands behind his installation. I don't expect him to stand behind the part. Now what is wrong with that concept? Oh yeah, I forgot about marking up the tree or parts cost. So What? I would much rather build on a customers custom hand built tree than a semi production Bowden. The finish is better , needs little or no prep and will be symmetrical so my job is made easier without fighting through the lumps bumps and ratty seams. Or having to send it back because it won't even sit a flat table properly. You might want to re-think your statement. Or maybe that is just the environment You live/work in. And if so, Carry on and please accept my apologies.

Blake

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

In terms of prices and wait times, it is always good to check with the different makers as prices do vary between makers and the wait times change depending on how many orders they had had in the last while. Right now our wait time is only about 2 months, so you can get a tree fairly quickly at the moment. I know a lot of other makers are not nearly as backed up as they were a few years ago either, so a phone call or e-mail is worth it.

[Horsecloud]

Thanks for the replies, I haven't gotten back to you all because I am mulling over everything.

My main question is, how do I get the correct measurements of my horse to you? I don't feel confident doing that myself to tell you the truth. This was one of my reasons for choosing someone that was fairly close to me. I felt comfortable with them taking the measurements with their templates.

If I were to do this with someone on here, how would I go about it?

I am sure you all are very experienced.

Bottom line I want a good quality saddle that FITS my horse and myself of course.

I know this is a stupid question to you all, but, how do I go about doing the templates myself and know that they are accurate. It's a huge expense for me if I don't do it right.

And, please don't judge or laugh at me, I am in love with my saddle and would like it to come as close to it as possible. The saddle fits three of my horses but my main trail horse it does not and he is starting to get some white hairs on him. The saddle is made by Martin saddlery and it's the Clinton Anderson saddle. A mix between an Aussie and western saddle.

My mind is open to going through a maker here, I just don't know how to go about it.

Thanks.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Horsecloud,

Your best bet is to check out the websites of makers on here whose saddles or trees you like the looks of. Check out the gallery in the saddle and tack section for some saddle pictures along with the directory on the line up top right under the Leatherworker.net banner. Whcn you contact them, ask what they recommend you do fit wise. There are no standards on how to get the templates/measurements to a maker. There are a lot of different methods of doing it. The saddle maker will know what they need for the trees they use or build. Go with their instructions.

[Horsecloud]

Horsecloud,

Your best bet is to check out the websites of makers on here whose saddles or trees you like the looks of. Check out the gallery in the saddle and tack section for some saddle pictures along with the directory on the line up top right under the Leatherworker.net banner. Whcn you contact them, ask what they recommend you do fit wise. There are no standards on how to get the templates/measurements to a maker. There are a lot of different methods of doing it. The saddle maker will know what they need for the trees they use or build. Go with their instructions.

I'll take a look here this week. Thanks.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I have no problem building on a customer supplied tree as long as it is made correctly and I still guarantee and stand behind my work. As far as fit, it is beyond my control when the customer supplies the tree and they understand that from the start.

I will also occasionally supply performance parts to my mechanic to have them installed on my truck. No Problem, and he stands behind his installation. I don't expect him to stand behind the part. Now what is wrong with that concept? Oh yeah, I forgot about marking up the tree or parts cost. So What? I would much rather build on a customers custom hand built tree than a semi production Bowden. The finish is better , needs little or no prep and will be symmetrical so my job is made easier without fighting through the lumps bumps and ratty seams. Or having to send it back because it won't even sit a flat table properly. You might want to re-think your statement. Or maybe that is just the environment You live/work in. And if so, Carry on and please accept my apologies.

Blake

Blake, sorry if what I said offended you. I am guessing that you live in an area, and have customers that use there horses as a living. These people tend know from experience, what they want, how it should fit and so on. I would have no problem building a saddle for some one like that, however; up here, most of the horsemen are weekenders, that live and work in the auto or finance world and only ride for pleasure some of the time. They don't know what they really want or need and read all the adds from saddle fitters and the like and think they know all there is to know and expect you to make it right because that is what they are entitled to. I personally have not had a problem with my customers, but; I am very careful to make sure that they understand what they are getting before I take an order. I have on the other hand seen some guys up here that have ended up in court for exactly what we are talking about. Their customers "forget" that they were supposed to be responsible for the fit and so on. Unfortunately we live in a world where some folks have gotten used to depending on lawyers to correct their mistakes! Not a good thing, but; that is the way it is.

Bob

[kseidel]

And, please don't judge or laugh at me, I am in love with my saddle and would like it to come as close to it as possible. The saddle fits three of my horses but my main trail horse it does not and he is starting to get some white hairs on him. The saddle is made by Martin saddlery and it's the Clinton Anderson saddle. A mix between an Aussie and western saddle.

I was just catching up on this thread and this statement caught my attention. If you are wanting a saddle to fit all of your horses, and what you have now fits all but one, you may find that a new one may do the same thing. Your "odd" horse may have different enough conformation to be outside the tolerance range of fitting the same saddle as your other horses. It all depends on where and what is causing the white hair.

Just an observation to consider.

Keith

[Horsecloud]

Keith, I see you are from Cody Wy. We loved visiting there on vacation and the horse in question is named after that town.

As for the white hairs, they are down from his withers about 3" I would say and they spread out about 3" horizontally. His dry spots are of course in that area as well.

The saddle I have does not slip forwards, backwards or to the left or right. It stays in place.

I have tried different thickness of pads.

I did call directly to Martin saddelry and the person I was talking to let me know without question that there is no such thing as "full" bars. I understand what he was meaning, but, he failed to let me know what it was that I was needing.

I'm assuming I need a wider gullet and different pitch?

I'm still looking into all of my options.

I put out on my saddle club forum that I would love to be able to borrow someone's saddle with full bars, (they knew what I mean cause we're all laymen when it comes to this) and I will be trying out a few saddes that are at least wider in the gullet this weekend.

I'm hoping he just needs help in that area and to be able to find several saddles ready made with "full'' bars. (What am I supposed to call that if not full bars anyway???) Do you all just say the inches?

If the saddles I am borrowing don't do the trick then I will be looking into getting one made off someone here possibly. I still feel the pull from the man who uses the Bowden tree because I'm pretty sure it will be the correct measurement for my horse. But, I'm realizing I have to resist since the tree is questionable.

Thank you.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Horsecloud

[BOB BRENNER]

I agree with Keith. The large saddle companies have developed trees with bars that fit a wide range of horses. Your Martin saddle fits three out of four horses which is about what one would expect for a production saddle. As Keith indicated, your fourth horse could have a conformation that is out of the normal range.

My question is - has the cause of the white hair been determined to be a narrow gullet width or wrong bar angle as you are indicating? If not, then you will be just spinning your wheels trying out saddles, as there other situations that can cause white hairs in that location. One could be that actually you may need bars with a steeper angle and not a flatter angle. For some additional info try Western Saddle Fit at www.saddlemakers.org

If I may make a suggestion; concentrate your efforts in locating a saddle maker you can work with face to face. Trying to diagnose a saddle fit problem and arrive at a solution long distance is fraught additional problems.

As far as trees, go with the tree the saddle maker uses or suggests. Bowden trees are in thousands of saddles. I have seen the same problem in a custom hand made tree. If the saddle maker is doing his or her job those trees would not be used in a saddle.

Good luck.

PS: Where did you hear about Double C Trees? Have not heard of them.

Submitted for you consideration.

Bob

[kseidel]

Keith, I see you are from Cody Wy. We loved visiting there on vacation and the horse in question is named after that town.

As for the white hairs, they are down from his withers about 3" I would say and they spread out about 3" horizontally. His dry spots are of course in that area as well.

The saddle I have does not slip forwards, backwards or to the left or right. It stays in place.

I have tried different thickness of pads.

I did call directly to Martin saddelry and the person I was talking to let me know without question that there is no such thing as "full" bars. I understand what he was meaning, but, he failed to let me know what it was that I was needing.

I'm assuming I need a wider gullet and different pitch?

I'm still looking into all of my options.

I put out on my saddle club forum that I would love to be able to borrow someone's saddle with full bars, (they knew what I mean cause we're all laymen when it comes to this) and I will be trying out a few saddes that are at least wider in the gullet this weekend.

I'm hoping he just needs help in that area and to be able to find several saddles ready made with "full'' bars. (What am I supposed to call that if not full bars anyway???) Do you all just say the inches?

If the saddles I am borrowing don't do the trick then I will be looking into getting one made off someone here possibly. I still feel the pull from the man who uses the Bowden tree because I'm pretty sure it will be the correct measurement for my horse. But, I'm realizing I have to resist since the tree is questionable.

Thank you.

I'm glad you enjoyed Cody. We think it is a pretty special town.

I think you may have misunderstood my post..... I am not trying to help you evaluate and correctly fit your horse, only pointing out that a new saddle may not fit all four of your horses any different than the one you have now. If all of your horses are the same conformation, then a single saddle can fit them all properly. However, if you have three that are same conformation, and one that is different, then one saddle will not fit all four. I can and am willing to help you with evaluation and getting a tree to fit, but that was not the original purpose of my post.

I feel your pain and frustration trying to describe trees. There seems to be more confusion these days than ever in layman terminology regarding tree bars. It was simpler when there were only full and semi quarter horse bars. I fear it may never be "simple" again! HaHa.

Borrowing saddles may not be helpful either, since there is no industry standard and no way to know for certain what tree is in each saddle that you try. Even if you find one that fits all of your horses, no one may know for certain what tree was used in that saddle. The best way to get a proper tree for your situation is to photograph and profile all of your horses, and have that information evaluated by someone knowledgeable in fitting ranges of horses. If your horses are not too different, it is possible to fit them all with one saddle and possibly some variable padding. But that is impossible to guess at without some profiling. (this is not all that difficult)

You do not have to have the highest quality tree to fit a horse well. An inexpensive tree can fit horses the same as the finest handbuilt. The factories have dozens of bar patterns to chose from and they probably have one that will fit your needs. The trick is to figure out which one is right. Do not assume anything in this process. The art of fitting horses is governed by some fundamental rules and breaking those rules, regardless of good intention, will result in an improper fit. Assuming that you need a wider gullet and different pitch is premature without hard facts to back up the diagnosis. The width and pitch may be correct but the shape of the bar pad be wrong.

The correct fit of saddle trees is a hotly debated topic. Many people have theories of what works, but the final proof is how well the saddle actually performs in use. It requires experience to know to fit a bare tree to a standing still horse and know how to compensate for the horses' range of motion. It can be confusing, but it is not rocket science. Don't give up hope. Start with evaluating what is causing your current problem, and go forward from there. We can help you get the correct fit if at all possible.

[Horsecloud]

Thank you all again.

I only need to have this new saddle to fit Cody. I don't want it to try and fit the other ones. My Martin fits them well and I will continue to use that one on the others.

I did have someone come over last night and they put a full bar saddle on him and I could tell the difference right away. It fit way better than my Martin so I don't think I'll have much of a problem finding something as long as I stay with full or wide bars. It'll be a process.

At this point, I'm going with the guy who uses the Bowden tree, but have a lot more questions for him, and if that doesn't work out I'll be taking my horse to a saddle shop that helps you fit your horse with saddles that are both new or used brand names to choose from.

I have to give it to you all, your craft is amazing and I respect what you can do with some wood and leather! Works of art. I wish I could afford to have some of that western history myself.

Thanks for teaching this uneducated person some things along the way.