Light Brown Dye Too Dark

[jrvinny]

Ok, so I've made dozens of holsters at this point and so far everyone wants black. Until now. Turns out, light brown is harder than it sounds. Luckily I tried some test pieces before I went crazy with the holster. One coat of Feibings light brown oil dye looks great when it's dry but when you get the leather wet for molding it turns DARK CHOCOLATE. I mean dark. I'm clearly missing something, just not sure what. I've already dyed the holster pieces so hopefully the step I'm missing doesn't come before that. I'm sure Murphy's law will somehow make an appearance though.

I found a post from johnggrg but that's the closest I could find to being the same issue. If anyone can help me out I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks in advance!!

[BearMan]

Hi,

That happens a lot when using "Pro Dye". Pro Dye is basically regular spirit dye, with oil added. So, if you've already oiled things, it's a second oil application. There are some other binders in Pro Dye also. The added oil, & other binders help to keep from getting the blotchiness you get with other dues. I don't use "Pro Dyes" at all, for that very problem, plus I will usually use different strengths of a given color. Most spirit dyes, I will start with a 50/50 mix with denatured alcohol, & then go down from there. Sometimes as much as 100/1 (alcohol to dye) depending on the color I want. I very RARELY use dyes full strength!

For me, if I'm doing an all over dye, like on a holster, after the oil has dried, I will take a 50/50 mix of the color I want, in a bowl, & apply it with a wool piece. Of course you need to wear gloves. Then when the dye dries, if it's the right color,,, great,,, if it needs to be darker, maybe a second application, or maybe a light coat of oil. But by cutting the dye first, there's less chance of it being too dark.

Btw,,, when I worked at the saddle shop, all of out dye's were 55 gal. barrels, & everything was dipped, after the oil had dried. We only used regular "spirit dyes.

I don't know if this will help, but it may help some future problems.

Ed the"BearMan"

[dirtclod]

Get some denatured alchiol to cut the dye with. I use a syringe to measure the dye and achiol with. Get a package of syringes and needles one for the dye and one for the alchiol. Pull up 20 or 30 cc of the dye and 2 to 3 times of the alchiol. You can play with it till you get the shade you want and write the measurment's on the bottle so you can mix it again.

[Kcinnick]

I bought a bottle of regular fiebings spirit based dye because they didn't have the color I needed in Pro Oil and I am never going to buy the pro oil again. Good thing my wife wanted something purple, or I would have never figured out I like the regular dyes better.

[jrvinny]

Hi,

That happens a lot when using "Pro Dye". Pro Dye is basically regular spirit dye, with oil added. So, if you've already oiled things, it's a second oil application. There are some other binders in Pro Dye also. The added oil, & other binders help to keep from getting the blotchiness you get with other dues. I don't use "Pro Dyes" at all, for that very problem, plus I will usually use different strengths of a given color. Most spirit dyes, I will start with a 50/50 mix with denatured alcohol, & then go down from there. Sometimes as much as 100/1 (alcohol to dye) depending on the color I want. I very RARELY use dyes full strength!

For me, if I'm doing an all over dye, like on a holster, after the oil has dried, I will take a 50/50 mix of the color I want, in a bowl, & apply it with a wool piece. Of course you need to wear gloves. Then when the dye dries, if it's the right color,,, great,,, if it needs to be darker, maybe a second application, or maybe a light coat of oil. But by cutting the dye first, there's less chance of it being too dark.

Btw,,, when I worked at the saddle shop, all of out dye's were 55 gal. barrels, & everything was dipped, after the oil had dried. We only used regular "spirit dyes.

I don't know if this will help, but it may help some future problems.

Ed the"BearMan"

Thanks for the info Ed. I have a few questions. I hope they aren't stupid ones. Are you saying you would oil the leather before dying? I have not done that in this case. Can you tell me why to oil the leather prior to dying?

Do you have a recommendation for a particular dye?

I don't have enough people asking for brown holsters to justify having enough dye to dip dye. I dye the leather before I sew up and mold the holster so I'm not dying the molded holster. That means I'm getting getting the dyed leather completely wet to mold and that's when the color turns so dark. Never been an issue with black because I want it as deep of a color as I can get. I will mix the dye down and do some test pieces. If I understand correctly, I actually want the color to be extremely light after dying to compensate for the darkening when wetting it for molding?

The more I do this, I realize the less I know!

Thanks again.

Get some denatured alchiol to cut the dye with. I use a syringe to measure the dye and achiol with. Get a package of syringes and needles one for the dye and one for the alchiol. Pull up 20 or 30 cc of the dye and 2 to 3 times of the alchiol. You can play with it till you get the shade you want and write the measurment's on the bottle so you can mix it again.

I was just thinking about how to measure the mix. Are you just using regular medical syringes?

[jrvinny]

I bought a bottle of regular fiebings spirit based dye because they didn't have the color I needed in Pro Oil and I am never going to buy the pro oil again. Good thing my wife wanted something purple, or I would have never figured out I like the regular dyes better.

Have you used the regular dye on molded holsters? Just wondering what wetting it will do.

[Kcinnick]

Have you used the regular dye on molded holsters? Just wondering what wetting it will do.

No, she wants an LSU belt so I ordered a bottle of purple dye. I haven't used anything on molded holsters other than oil and the sun, or just used drummed dyed black leather. I have enough trouble with die to try to get an even coat on something molded. My plan in the future however is going to be to dip dye the piece a lighter color than I want it to turn out, then airbrush the color I want over the top. Good thing everyone wants black these days, Drum Dyed Hermann Oak black saves a ton of time.

[dirtclod]

I was just thinking about how to measure the mix. Are you just using regular medical syringes?

I get the big syringes and needles at the farm supply store. You need to label the syringes so you'll know what's in what. I write on them with a dry mark what color dye was was used.

Edited December 12, 2011 by dirtclod

[katsass]

Ok, so I've made dozens of holsters at this point and so far everyone wants black. Until now. Turns out, light brown is harder than it sounds. Luckily I tried some test pieces before I went crazy with the holster. One coat of Feibings light brown oil dye looks great when it's dry but when you get the leather wet for molding it turns DARK CHOCOLATE. I mean dark. I'm clearly missing something, just not sure what. I've already dyed the holster pieces so hopefully the step I'm missing doesn't come before that. I'm sure Murphy's law will somehow make an appearance though.

I found a post from johnggrg but that's the closest I could find to being the same issue. If anyone can help me out I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks in advance!!

FWIW from old grumpy guy; I've used Fiebing's Pro Oil dye on most of my holsters. I cut, dye --- allow 24 hrs to dry, assemble and stitch, mold, then add a finish. I've never had the color change when wet molding after stitching the thing up, except for that period that the leather remains wet while drying. The application of neatsfoot oil WILL darken the color. Mike

[jrvinny]

FWIW from old grumpy guy; I've used Fiebing's Pro Oil dye on most of my holsters. I cut, dye --- allow 24 hrs to dry, assemble and stitch, mold, then add a finish. I've never had the color change when wet molding after stitching the thing up, except for that period that the leather remains wet while drying. The application of neatsfoot oil WILL darken the color. Mike

I use that exact same process. I was really surprised at my results. The leather is a nice light tobacco color after one coat of dye and after a quick dip in the water it's so dark it's almost black, even after drying. The whole thing's making me a little grumpy myself!

[katsass]

Ok, so I've made dozens of holsters at this point and so far everyone wants black. Until now. Turns out, light brown is harder than it sounds. Luckily I tried some test pieces before I went crazy with the holster. One coat of Feibings light brown oil dye looks great when it's dry but when you get the leather wet for molding it turns DARK CHOCOLATE. I mean dark. I'm clearly missing something, just not sure what. I've already dyed the holster pieces so hopefully the step I'm missing doesn't come before that. I'm sure Murphy's law will somehow make an appearance though.

I found a post from johnggrg but that's the closest I could find to being the same issue. If anyone can help me out I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks in advance!!

Well, from the old grump, I'm at a total loss. I have absolutely no idea what happened. Here's a couple of pics of a rig I did earlier this year. They're done in a combo of saddle tan and dark brown oil dyes ---- thinned a bunch with denatured alcohol, and maybe close to the color you were working with/for.. The holster was wet molded after dying. The second pic shows the two matching holsters made. The one on the right, for this rig, and finished. The one on the left, a strong-side holster is unfinished. As said, I use oil dyes for almost all of my dye jobs, applied by airbrush --- never heard of such a thing. Mike

[particle]

What kind of leather are you using? I'm currently using Wickett & Craig.

How are you applying the dye?

Here is a Light Brown holster with Dark Brown accents around the edges. I apply the dye with an airbrush (4 coats). I also cut, dye, assemble, wet, form, bake, oil, seal - in that order (with a few other misc. steps tossed in). I only use Fiebing's Pro Oil dyes, and I never dilute them.

For what it's worth, here is another comparison. The first journal cover is cut from 5-6oz Herman Oak that I pulled from my scrap bin. For this, I used a folded piece of canvas dipped in Light Brown Pro Oil, then applied it in a circular motion first, then from left to right, then up and down - 3 coats. I then followed that up with a blotted piece of canvas (very little dye left) and dabbed on Dark Brown for a mottled effect. Then I oiled the whole piece. I dampened it to fold and hammer down the stitches - no darkening of the color (except for when I oiled it).

Here is a journal I made last night with the same colors, applied the same way. But, this time I used a cheap piece of 4-5oz that I bought on sale from Tandy a couple weeks ago. It came out MUCH darker and looked horrible until I put a finish on it, but it's still way too dark for what I intended (I wanted it more like the one above).

Edited December 12, 2011 by particle

[katsass]

FWIW; AH, YES --- the leather quality makes a difference. Again, FWIW, I WILL NOT purchase leather from the 'T' place. Mike

[jrvinny]

What kind of leather are you using? I'm currently using Wickett & Craig.

How are you applying the dye?

Here is a Light Brown holster with Dark Brown accents around the edges. I apply the dye with an airbrush (4 coats). I also cut, dye, assemble, wet, form, bake, oil, seal - in that order (with a few other misc. steps tossed in). I only use Fiebing's Pro Oil dyes, and I never dilute them.

Particle, you've helped me out a few times in the past and I appreciate your efforts, along with everyone else who has tried to help me figure this out.

I think we may have a winner. I'm using a piece of leather from Tandy that was surprisingly nice (I thought). It works fantastic for black holsters. When I look at the difference in color between your Hermann Oak and the Tandy I can see the color similarities in the problem I'm having. I'm using a wool dauber to apply because I don't have an airbrush setup. It's worked fine with black, I guess because black can never be too black. When it comes to the brown you say you never dilute the Pro Oil. Others have said they always dilute them. It may just be a matter of finding the right process for the leather I happen to have.

For all of this to make more sense, here is a photo and description of everything I have going on for this holster.

1. 1 coat of Pro Oil light brown, dipped in water

2. 2 coats of Pro Oil light brown, dipped in water

3. 3 coats of Pro Oil light brown, dipped in water

4. No dye. 3 coats of neatsfoot oil.

5. 1 coat of Pro Oil light brown, not dipped in water

6. 1 coat of new EcoFlo light brown water stain

7. Natural leather before any dye/oil

My local Tandy manager (great guy and very helpful!) gave me a bottle of this new EcoFlo Water Stain to experiment with. He has not made a holster with it so he didn't know how the color would react to being dipped in water. I haven't gotten that far yet but the color seems to look a bit flat. It's got quite a bit of red in it too. Seems like you cover up the appearance of the grain in the leather with the water stain.

The more I look at these colors, the more I like the neatsfoot oil coloring. I would like it to be a little darker though. Apparently, putting it out in the sun after applying the oil will darken it. That would be great if it weren't overcast and raining here for the next few days. I'm on a bit of a time crunch. This may be a dumb question, but if you go with the neatsfoot oil coloring, do you apply the oil before or after molding?

The only thing I haven't done yet is diluting the dye with denatured alcohol and seeing what the water does to that. I wish I had time and budget to get in some Wicket & Craig leather but I'm afraid I'm going to have to figure out how to make it work with what I have.

[Shooter McGavin]

The water stain is pretty water resistant. However it does not really penetrate. Best used on top of a dye the same color IMO.

[particle]

I oil after forming/baking. You might try the block dyeing method. Take a wood block, wrap a tshirt around the edge, drizzle the dye on the edge, blot the excess on a paper towel, then drag it over the surface multiple times until you get your desired intensity, but remember it will darken after oiling. You only want to use a single coat of neetsfoot oil on holsters.

[jrvinny]

I oil after forming/baking. You might try the block dyeing method. Take a wood block, wrap a tshirt around the edge, drizzle the dye on the edge, blot the excess on a paper towel, then drag it over the surface multiple times until you get your desired intensity, but remember it will darken after oiling. You only want to use a single coat of neetsfoot oil on holsters.

Will more than 1 coat of neatsfoot end up soaking through to the flesh side?

[woodandsteel]

I only use Fiebings Pro oil dyes. I dye my pieces with a foam brush before stitching. After assembly I wet mold, bake, oil, and then finish with Resolene. It sounds like Particle may be right, that your leather is too dry and it's soaking up lots of dye and darkening. If the leather is drying completely after wet molding, it shouldn't darken dramatically.

[katsass]

Ok, so I've made dozens of holsters at this point and so far everyone wants black. Until now. Turns out, light brown is harder than it sounds. Luckily I tried some test pieces before I went crazy with the holster. One coat of Feibings light brown oil dye looks great when it's dry but when you get the leather wet for molding it turns DARK CHOCOLATE. I mean dark. I'm clearly missing something, just not sure what. I've already dyed the holster pieces so hopefully the step I'm missing doesn't come before that. I'm sure Murphy's law will somehow make an appearance though.

I found a post from johnggrg but that's the closest I could find to being the same issue. If anyone can help me out I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks in advance!!

Again from the old grump; Just came across a bit of information that was shown on a DIY show (totally unrelated to leather working). In it a discussion of residential water systems came up, and it was mentioned that in such systems from some years ago iron pipes were used extensively, and in many places they remain in use today. The upshot is that in such a system iron oxides form in the water and that higher concentrations of iron CAN discolor fabric --- and probably leather. I do know that while in I was in one Arizona town in the early 60s, ALL of my white stuff ended up a rusty tan color after washing. 'Taint impossible that your water has something to do with it too. Mike

[particle]

Will more than 1 coat of neatsfoot end up soaking through to the flesh side?

You'll find differing opinions on the use of oil on gun holsters. As we all know, Bianchi is well known in the holster industry and has a fantastic tutorial DVD. In his video, he instructs you to apply multiple coats of neetsfoot oil to the holster he's teaching the viewer to build. For what it's worth, his holster is lined, so there is a barrier of contact cement between the two layers of leather, so the flesh sides are not exposed and do not directly receive the oil. He oils the inside and outside of the holster several times until it's thoroughly absorbed. He says the oil acts to seal the pores, making it more water resistant if memory serves me. I believe he also mentions the oil does not penetrate very deep because the oil essentially seals the leather. He does not specifically say this is only advisable for western style holsters (as opposed to tightly formed concealed carry rigs). I would love to know if he stands by this oil method on his concealed carry rigs, or if it only applies to his western rigs.

If you drop by Brigade Gunleather's website, they have photos giving an overview of their process. They also apply liberal amounts of oil to their holsters - concealed carry rigs included.

Then there's the crowd that strongly advises against the use of any sort of oil or heat applied to the leather.

The majority of makers here seem to lean towards a single coat of oil applied after forming/baking is a good thing, and too much oil results in a limp holster in short order. That's the method I currently subscribe too.

[dickf]

My experience with light brown is a very long and crappy road. Getting the perfect even shade of brown WITHOUT an airbrush was like chasing the dragon for me.

This is Feibings Saddle Tan Pro Dye on Hermann Oak leather. This was a test holster, so nevermind the wonky outer stitch line

This holster was dip-dyed and before molding, was the perfect shade of brown and was nice and even. Then I got it wet...

It was at this point that I swore off of Feibings dye forever and switched (almost) exclusively to Angelus products. I've never been happier. The only way I use saddle tan anymore, and I still do, is to get the very light tan color like this:

To get this shade, I dilute the hell out of saddle tan dye and give it a soak. I forget the ratio off the top of my head, but I think it's something like 15:1 (yes, really).

As of late, I broke down and bought some drum dyed brown and I tell you, I'll never go back. You can dye the brown leather black or keep it brown and bypass a whole step in the process.

Good luck!

[Eaglestroker]

Most everything I dip dye now, but the only way I can consistently get nice light colors is with an airbrush. This piece was dip dyed but don't ask me how I did it! Each piece takes the dye differently is all I can say.