About Importing Endangered Species

[WinterBear]

Check out the USFWS website for press releases and the US Justice Department press releases for information on those that have been busted for smuggling. Smuggling of cat hides especially (tiger, leopard, etc.), but they tend to be furred pelts or rugs than dehaired leather goods. In the US, with native species, it's usually lynx. Lynx are protected in most of the US, either on the federal or state level, and the hides can look very similar to bobcat hides. Some states prohibit or restrict hunting and trapping of bobcats to prevent "take" of lynx.

Otter, wolf, wolverine, grizzly etc. hides are also problematic to legally have in some states, even if they were legally taken in another state or country, and may require interstate game tags at the least to being illegal to possess in the state, period. For example, otters and the state of Wyoming. Otters are not legal to take in Wyoming, but can be purchased from Washington. If I buy an otter hide from Washington to make a hat, It will need to have a tag from the Washington Game and Fish affixed to it, usually through an eyehole, the tip of the tail, or a foot, depending on if it is a whole or partial hide. I will then have to take it to the Wyoming G&F and get an interstate tag affixed (about $8 and some paperwork). The tags must accompany the skin until the hat is made and may be required to be affixed to the finished hat. While still in hide state, there are some states I may not take the hide to, even with the WA tag and the interstate tag attached. Once made into a hat, there should be no problems, but it would still be a good idea to keep the tags with the hat while transporting.

Acts that you may find of use (generalized overview in parentheses):

Lacey Act (http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm)

Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act (http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stus16usc668.htm)

Endangered Species Act (http://www.animallaw.info/topics/tabbed%20topic%20page/spusesa.htm)

Migratory Bird Protection Act (http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusmba.htm)

US Department of Justice: http://www.justice.gov

Press releases on wildlife: http://searchjustice.usdoj.gov/search?q=wildlife&search.x=0&search.y=0&q=inurl%3A%2Fopa%2Fpr&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=iso-8859-1&oe=UTF-8&client=default_frontend&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&site=default_collection

USFWS: http://www.fws.gov/

Press releases: http://us.vocuspr.com/Newsroom/Query.aspx?SiteName=fws&Entity=PRAsset&PublishType=Press+Release&XSL=PressReleases&Title=Recent+Releases&PageSize=0&MaximumResults=10&Cache=&SF_PRAsset_PRAssetUDF_UDF20582_EQ=%28R9%29+Headquarters+%28Region+9%29 (will need to select region for best effect on search engine)

ECOS: http://ecos.fws.gov/ecos/indexPublic.do#

Bobcat, no federal protection beyond Lacey Act, but may have state protections (search NatureServe--link below--for list of states): http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=A0HX

Lynx, showing differences in status across range: http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=A073

You might also poke around on the ICUN and NatureServe websites:

NatureServe: http://natureserve.org/; NatureServe search engine: http://www.natureserve.org/explorer/servlet/NatureServe?init=Species

ICUN: http://www.iucnredlist.org/

Ok, brain overload, right? Once you narrow it down somewhat as far as what species you want to talk about, where it is coming from, and where it is going, I can probably offer more specific help.

[xtine]

Ok, brain overload, right? Once you narrow it down somewhat as far as what species you want to talk about, where it is coming from, and where it is going, I can probably offer more specific help.

OMG total overload.

It's like me trying to explain how a shirt goes from concept to store in a forum.

But the thing about the hat is pretty cool.

X

[WinterBear]

Hehe, sorry. I deal with some aspects of this pretty much daily, so I have a lot of information about it (and yet, I seem to have nowhere near enough time to understand it all, so have to look at just portions of it at a time to try and figure it out). All of that was just the "broad splatter-brush".

The hat is a bit of a headache actually. I wonder if the group who wanted to make it are now thinking they should have started out with something a little less complicated...like coyote or bison.

[Art]

Hi Christine,

It is a little stiffer, but not brittle. The skin is pretty much unmarkable with a fingernail, and scratching with a fingernail produces little if any change. Under magnification the plate structure of the skin is obviously different than cow. Email me your postal address at artvanhecke at gmail dot com and I will send you a piece so you can see for yourself. Also the elephant is about 6 or more times as expensive as quality calf.

Art

Art - that picture is beautiful. Thanks so much. I can get a lot from that.

How does the elephant feel? I know tanning has a lot to do with it, but you said it was different than calf. Softer? Slicker? Stiffer?

Thanks!

[DoubleC]

Good Morning -

I am not a leatherworker at all. Just a novelist who put in a plot device she doesn't fully understand. I am hoping to pick all your brains on the below questions.

I appreciate the time you would take to help me with all or some of the below. I know everyone is busy, and I'm not really a proper member here, nor am I a leatherworker. So I hope you can forgive the intrusion....okay here goes!

*Is there an endangered species skin that can be easily confusedwith a really nice version of another, permitted skin?

*What is a CITES cert? (I'm sure I'm saying this wrong) Is this something that will let an endangeredspecies skin through customs? How can it be allowed at all? What do they haveto certify? This seems crazy, but I'm totally uneducated on the subject. (maybeyou have a good link to the info?)

*Are ALL skins checked at customs? I'd like it if a small amount got throughand then the big shipment is blocked.

*What skin would you recommend? I'd like it to be so luxuriousthat when you touch it you say, "oh my god this is the nicest leather I haveEVER touched." And what country would it be from? I can easily have it comefrom one place, be dyed/tanned in another and shipped from a third – possiblywith a third treatment on it if necessary. No problem for the story.

Thanks in advance for your help.

You can check out my website at http://fashionismurder.com (the "murder" part refers to the murder mystery aspect of the books)

And you can look at the first book in the series here....http://www.amazon.com/Dead-New-Black-Fashion-Mysteries/dp/1466338121/

Have a great new year!

Hi Christine. This thread was so pertinent to me that I couldn't believe it. I just went to a leather company recommended on here and after I filled out my info to buy wholesale, I went to the home page to start to check out leather, and saw the had an elephant hide, or 1/2 or shoulder or belly, I really don't know. I shut the site down as I tried not to vomit. 2011 was the worst year in a long time for poaching African elephants and rhinos. Seems there's a recently wealthy Asian market that wants nice things, and are willing to pay for the poaching of tusks and horns. Ivory for obvious reasons, it's beautiful, and the rhino horns because it's believed to have medicinal power (actually I think some cultures think it's an aphrodisiac) which has been proven by 12 gazillion studies it doesn't have any, no, not none, buy Viagra.

I know I'm on a little rant here and will probably get BUSTED or at least accused of being one of those PETA fruitcakes, but I just had to jump in. And also because I am a 'recovering writer' LOL with a couple SS published, and I know what you're up against. Well I mean as far as research; I know nothing from fashion and the worst part is that most of the replies read like Greek to me and wouldn't ya know I took Latin? So I can't help you at all except give you some moral support and explain that however it's justified, leather comes from COWS and not animals whose flesh and bones rot away after being stripped of their skin. We drink cow milk, we eat cow meat, and we use their hides. Kinda like the way it used to be when the only people here were Native Americans. So if you get confused about what leather is, just let me know and I'll explain it again, LOL. Good luck on the new story. Cheryl

[Art]

Hi Cheryl,

In Africa, some of the governments have turned over management of the elephant population to local tribes. The tribes are taught species management and often sell tags for elephant the way we do here for moose elk sheep and bear. In lands managed by local tribes, the elephant population has increased because it is seen as a continuing resource, in other words, it provides income. Poaching in these areas has become a thing of the past because poachers disappear, or worse. Poachers are always in season in the areas and they know it. The tribes cull the overpopulation of elephants and any rogues that cause trouble. The culls are where the elephant panels come from. Look at them as a rather large version of the cow (however I wouldn't attempt to milk one).

When governments attempt the management of elephant herds, the poaching problem is much more prevalent, penalties for poaching are not nearly as severe as in tribe managed areas, and the government agents are not nearly as adept in the bush as indigenous tribesmen, nor as brutal.

When you buy a culled animal hide with a CITES tag, you are feeding an African tribesman. Poachers don't worry about CITES tags or any laws for that matter. Poachers seldom take the time to skin out an elephant, and there is too much further processing necessary to market it.

Art

Hi Christine. This thread was so pertinent to me that I couldn't believe it. I just went to a leather company recommended on here and after I filled out my info to buy wholesale, I went to the home page to start to check out leather, and saw the had an elephant hide, or 1/2 or shoulder or belly, I really don't know. I shut the site down as I tried not to vomit. 2011 was the worst year in a long time for poaching African elephants and rhinos. Seems there's a recently wealthy Asian market that wants nice things, and are willing to pay for the poaching of tusks and horns. Ivory for obvious reasons, it's beautiful, and the rhino horns because it's believed to have medicinal power (actually I think some cultures think it's an aphrodisiac) which has been proven by 12 gazillion studies it doesn't have any, no, not none, buy Viagra.

I know I'm on a little rant here and will probably get BUSTED or at least accused of being one of those PETA fruitcakes, but I just had to jump in. And also because I am a 'recovering writer' LOL with a couple SS published, and I know what you're up against. Well I mean as far as research; I know nothing from fashion and the worst part is that most of the replies read like Greek to me and wouldn't ya know I took Latin? So I can't help you at all except give you some moral support and explain that however it's justified, leather comes from COWS and not animals whose flesh and bones rot away after being stripped of their skin. We drink cow milk, we eat cow meat, and we use their hides. Kinda like the way it used to be when the only people here were Native Americans. So if you get confused about what leather is, just let me know and I'll explain it again, LOL. Good luck on the new story. Cheryl

[DoubleC]

Hi Cheryl,

In Africa, some of the governments have turned over management of the elephant population to local tribes. The tribes are taught species management and often sell tags for elephant the way we do here for moose elk sheep and bear. In lands managed by local tribes, the elephant population has increased because it is seen as a continuing resource, in other words, it provides income. Poaching in these areas has become a thing of the past because poachers disappear, or worse. Poachers are always in season in the areas and they know it. The tribes cull the overpopulation of elephants and any rogues that cause trouble. The culls are where the elephant panels come from. Look at them as a rather large version of the cow (however I wouldn't attempt to milk one).

When governments attempt the management of elephant herds, the poaching problem is much more prevalent, penalties for poaching are not nearly as severe as in tribe managed areas, and the government agents are not nearly as adept in the bush as indigenous tribesmen, nor as brutal.

When you buy a culled animal hide with a CITES tag, you are feeding an African tribesman. Poachers don't worry about CITES tags or any laws for that matter. Poachers seldom take the time to skin out an elephant, and there is too much further processing necessary to market it.

Art

Hi Art. The article I read recently must have been about the government run populations. And I know the government culls them too, or has in the past, with helicopters and just kills them and leaves everything. I've read and watched a lot of things about elephants and in their behavior they are so human like....only better somehow. It's not that I'm anti-social and don't like people Art. But the elephant herd is run by the oldest cow who knows where the food will be, and water during the year. When a bull calf gets to an age he becomes interested in his cousins, the lead cow makes him leave the herd which has kept the population stronger by preventing inbreeding. Over 100 years ago the African cow had tusks too, and was poached as well as the bulls. In less than 100 years, the African female calf started being born WITHOUT tusks. The African government tried to introduce elephants into a new area so they gather up teenagers and moved them there. Within two weeks they were running wild, knocking over trees and generally out of control. The put an older cow with them and the behavior stopped within 24 hours.

They've caught elephants on video coming upon a Government culled group, and the group carried the tusks into the, woods, trees, jungle? and hid them. it's as if they know why they're being hunted and culled.

I agree the solution they've come up with as far as turning the control over to tribes-people is a much better one. I also understand that to some culling them is no different than a zebra. Part of my problem Art is with the waste. They don't eat elephant meat, or I don't think the tribes-people do. And elephants are different than zebras. I don't think they've even found a way to measure an elephant's intelligence. I'm really not a PETA nut (not that I'm sure they're nuts) I just think the whole premise of Christine's book shows the problem between humans and animals. Not that it's Christine's fault, I'm expressing myself badly, it's just the disregard we have for life. It saddens me. Cheryl

[Art]

Tribes people do eat culled elephant, they even eat poached ones when they come upon them. They even eat 70 year old ones that just fall over dead. Protein is protein.

Generally, bull elephants are the ones that are culled. The occasional rogue female is taken for safety or humanitarian reasons. These animals are totally consumed, ivory, skin (this is what we see) and bones (soup, tools, trinkets, etc.). When I say the tribes manage the herds, they actually do it scientifically and socially; there is considerable discussion and selection. They know their animals quite well and would only take a matriarch if she went rogue, they know what a decision like that means. Like I said before, the herds under management have increased.

There is good and bad in every situation.

Art

Hi Art. The article I read recently must have been about the government run populations. And I know the government culls them too, or has in the past, with helicopters and just kills them and leaves everything. I've read and watched a lot of things about elephants and in their behavior they are so human like....only better somehow. It's not that I'm anti-social and don't like people Art. But the elephant herd is run by the oldest cow who knows where the food will be, and water during the year. When a bull calf gets to an age he becomes interested in his cousins, the lead cow makes him leave the herd which has kept the population stronger by preventing inbreeding. Over 100 years ago the African cow had tusks too, and was poached as well as the bulls. In less than 100 years, the African female calf started being born WITHOUT tusks. The African government tried to introduce elephants into a new area so they gather up teenagers and moved them there. Within two weeks they were running wild, knocking over trees and generally out of control. The put an older cow with them and the behavior stopped within 24 hours.

They've caught elephants on video coming upon a Government culled group, and the group carried the tusks into the, woods, trees, jungle? and hid them. it's as if they know why they're being hunted and culled.

I agree the solution they've come up with as far as turning the control over to tribes-people is a much better one. I also understand that to some culling them is no different than a zebra. Part of my problem Art is with the waste. They don't eat elephant meat, or I don't think the tribes-people do. And elephants are different than zebras. I don't think they've even found a way to measure an elephant's intelligence. I'm really not a PETA nut (not that I'm sure they're nuts) I just think the whole premise of Christine's book shows the problem between humans and animals. Not that it's Christine's fault, I'm expressing myself badly, it's just the disregard we have for life. It saddens me. Cheryl

[DoubleC]

Tribes people do eat culled elephant, they even eat poached ones when they come upon them. They even eat 70 year old ones that just fall over dead. Protein is protein.

Generally, bull elephants are the ones that are culled. The occasional rogue female is taken for safety or humanitarian reasons. These animals are totally consumed, ivory, skin (this is what we see) and bones (soup, tools, trinkets, etc.). When I say the tribes manage the herds, they actually do it scientifically and socially; there is considerable discussion and selection. They know their animals quite well and would only take a matriarch if she went rogue, they know what a decision like that means. Like I said before, the herds under management have increased.

There is good and bad in every situation.

Art

Art, I honestly didn't know that. For some reason that makes me happy. I never imagined it would be POSSIBLE to eat elephant just because of the way they look. You really know your stuff and I'm glad you bothered to explain it to me. Cheryl.

[xtine]

Cheryl, I'm sorry but I never told you the premise of the book, and I have not told it to anyone so I'm unsure how you know it?

I also hate waste, and I am glad to hear about the solutions of the tribespeople.

Art - I sent you an email