Frustrated and pulling hair out

[wolvenstien]

I have been working on learning how to recover my motorcycle seats now for maybe 7-8 months now. I have been too scared to do anything on the main because I felt it was too complicated with the contours and all so i started with the passenger seat first... couldn't get it with the way i was trying.... After posting back and forth with Beeza, when I wanted more info on making a pattern to make the cover for the main seat, he told me he doesn't make and use patterns when recovering thick cushioned seats. He wet molds them, and suggested I just jump in there and do it. So I did.

It turned out nice. Not what I had in mind, but I intend on going back and adding the lace here in the future.

The decision to go with tan (Feibings antique Tan is what I used) was made back when i first did the passenger back rest from input from this site. When I asked, it was suggested I use Super Sheen as my finish on the seats and no one chimed in telling me that it was a mistake.... So this is what I used. It worked fine on the passenger backrest but the backrest has had no one using it, it is more there for decoration as I don't have a passenger seat on the bike for anything to sit on......

I said screw it and pushed aside my fears and did like Beeze briefly instructed me to do on my main seat. Along with the main seat, I have an after market custom backrest for the main, from Utopia that I wanted to cover too. I did the main with the wet mold method, and did the utopia backrest with a sandwich method. I did both with tan antique (thanks Johanna for the method of application with the fur), and finished the backrest with super sheen, and through another thread (maybe the same where Johanna mentioned the method of applying antique) I was informed that Leather Sheen is the same as Super Sheen just in an aerosol form, so I finished the main seat in Leather Sheen.

Below are pix of the finish of both the backrest and the main seat.

Take a wild guess at just how pissed I am.... I don't know if the whole thing is screwed.... if it is going to salvageable? If I can "strip" the finish, leave the antique on the leather, and refinish it with something that inst going to come off like this crap has came off. Or if I have to reapply the antique, making the whole thing darker, so it doesn't match the passenger backrest (which I did several months back and is a bit darker already). Am I screwed?

What can i do to save this?

Look at the pix of the backrest, you can see where the antique that is in the tooling and cuts has fallen away and there is a clean spot where it should be a very dark spot from the antique...

Edited June 25, 2008 by wolvenstien

[Luke Hatley]

THAT HURTS.........THERE IS AN INFORMATION SHEET AT TANDY OR USE TO BE ,

THAT WILL TELL YOU WHAT, FINISHES , DYES , ANTIQUES THAT ARE COMPATIABLE WITH EACH OTHER.

[wolvenstien]

Luke, it is not a matter of something being incompatible with something else.... leather sheen and super sheen are both compatible with antique.... its a matter of it coming off just from bare usage in a matter of days...

[kseidel]

You have a pretty big problem! But it should be salvageable. It seems that the finish(s) did not adhere to the leather. A common problem sepecially with certain leathers. I don't think the super sheen or leather sheen is entirely to blame. The antique finish under the sheen did not work properly. The leather has to be clean and preped prior to applying any finish. Oils from your hands and residue from working the leather resists even finishing.

You need to strip the finish that you have applied. Antique is hard to remove. Acetone will strip the Sheen, and mineral spirits will lift most of the antique. Wash and rinse thoroughly with soap and water after stripping. Then wash with oxalic acid. This opens the pores and makes the leather receptive to more finishes. Skirting leather should be oiled to restore the life into the leather. Oil does darken some. You should plan for this when developing your color strategy. If you choose not to use any oil, you will be more apt to get some unevenness in the finish. If you do oil, apply a light coat and let set for at least 8 hours to allow the oil to wick deep into the fibers and not be left on the surface. It takes a day or two to completely level the color. If you are using a paste antique, it will apply more evenly if mixed with the leather sheen. I prefer Neat-lac or tan-kote for this. If you don't mix the paste antique, thin it a little with mineral spirits. Smooth leather is hard to antique smoothly with out blotching. Buff off the excess fairly quickly. Apply the lacquer finish by hand with a woolskin. Using extra lacquer will help to smooth the antique further. Work the lacquer into the leather like oil, not just a thick coat on the surface to dry. This will crack and peel and look like a plastic finish.

Hopes this helps,

best of luck, Keith

[abn]

Wow. I had something like this happen to me on one of my wallet interiors. I applied Satin Shene and upon the slightest friction, it peeled away like a thin layer of skin. Keith hit the nail right on the head. Satin Shene normally absorbs into the leather and bonds with it, but some leathers might have a glaze on top that causes the shene to simply dry on top. Thus, the problem you mentioned. It sounds like Keith gave you a good formula for stripping the old finish. But one thing I'm wondering, given your problems already with this leather, is whether you want to try a different finish next time. I thought all the motorcycle guys recommended Pecard's (but I may be wrong -- definitely verify with those in the know). If not Pecard's, I might try a wax-based finish like Leather Balm with Atom Wax. I thought Johanna mentioned some time back that she used Leather Balm on her motorcycle gear with good results...

Anyway, sorry to hear about the problems, and good luck with figuring them out! -Alex

[wolvenstien]

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...ic=2937&hl=

Here is a thread i started a while back.... this is leather from the same hide.

I didnt get pix of it, but it is pretty much the same thing, except it came off in sheets on the older one....

Thing about using pecards or leather balm is you cant use it over antique or it will moisten the dried paste and ruin everything. Other wist I would use it.... So I am left with having to find something or some way to get a finish over the antique paste.

The way I applied this paste was to use woolskin in a small area, and a cloth to wipe it down once it was rubbed in real well, then move to a new area. Once it was completely covered with antique, i went back over it with a cloth kind of buffing it to get any excess off. I allowed to dry and sprayed it with leather sheen the next day.

So Keith, you are suggesting the following:

1. Strip the finish using Acetone.

2. Strip the antique with mineral spirits.

3. Wash and rinse thoroughly with soap and water after stripping.

4. Wash with oxalic acid.

5. Oil the leather, apply a light coat and let set for at least 8 hours to allow the oil to wick deep into the fibers and not be left on the surface.

6. If you are using a paste antique, it will apply more evenly if mixed with the leather sheen. I prefer Neat-lac or tan-kote for this. If you don't mix the paste antique, thin it a little with mineral spirits.

7. Buff off the excess fairly quickly.

8. Apply the lacquer finish by hand with a woolskin. Using extra lacquer will help to smooth the antique further. Work the lacquer into the leather like oil, not just a thick coat on the surface to dry. This will crack and peel and look like a plastic finish.

Ok, questions: Where do I find oxalic acid? I havent tried mixing antique with anything before, so what is the ratio you are talking? And what would you use to apply the cut antique to the leather with? Now you say to finish it off with a lacquer finish like neat lac but wont Neat Lac just crack on me when I sit on it? I have used Neat Lac but have not had good luck with it wicking into the leather, it sits on top of the antique whenever i have used it....

Edited June 26, 2008 by wolvenstien

[Roger]

sorry to see the problems you are having!

this is why i don't use antique on seats. even if you seal it, once you get out in a good rain you will have problems. some things just won't work for long out in the weather.

i'ed like to see some pics of your seat to see how it came out.

btw.. i never did understand how a water based sealer would work over antuque as it is full of oils and wax???

[wolvenstien]

What really gets me is I have a phone case here I made for my blackberry, and I is done exactly like the seat... I tooled it out, antiqued it with the very same antique paste, let it dry, then finished it with supersheen, and have been wearing it now for 6 months atleast and have had no problems with the finish.... it looks today just like it did the day i made it except for some wear, and it has gotten darker like the passenger backrest has.... even the flap is 100% intact...

[abn]

Okay, so a couple of things come to mind when re-reading this thread.

First off, I'm a big believer in trying something and then moving on. You've been struggling with this hide, Fiebings Antique, and Super Shene since May. They just don't seem to be compatible. At this point, I'd try a new combination since the results can't be any worse than what you've already experienced. I think Neat-Lac is what I'd try, since it should be flexible enough. If you're having problems with Neat-Lac, too, then you might want to simply throw out the leather (or use it for mock-ups). It may be glazed or otherwise problematic, and why continue to struggle with it?

The second thing is to remember that you're building a piece of functional gear, not wall art. As such, a performance factor is introduced. While it may be pretty to have an antiqued leather seat, if it's not practical, you should try something else. I'm no motorcycle expert, but my guess is that the seat should be comfortable first, should hold up to the elements next, and finally, dead last, is how it looks. A great-looking seat that splotches at first rainfall or leaves antique paste on your jeans isn't going to be worth much.

I don't know about you, but I do all of my learning from my mistakes, and the bigger the mistake, the more I learn. Frustrating, yes. But it sounds like you're learning some important lessons out of this. And regardless of how bad things get -- don't throw out the seat! Even if it looks terrible, you should ride around on it to make sure your design is comfortable and will hold up to some wear.

Good luck, and keep your head up! -Alex

[kseidel]

Several things here to reply to:

Thing about using pecards or leather balm is you cant use it over antique or it will moisten the dried paste and ruin everything. Other wist I would use it.... So I am left with having to find something or some way to get a finish over the antique paste.

first of all, if whatever you use as a topcoat over the antique is disolving and wiping it away, then you are leaving too much antique on the surface. You only want to "antique" the surface, not dye it a different color. The antique should be rubbed into the open pores and then buffed off leaving only that which will remain in the grain and texture of the leather and in the tooling, if any.

As I stated before, it is very difficult to apply a smooth antique finish to smooth leather. If you apply the antique straight to naked leather, certain precautions need to be followed. Be sure the leather is clean and prepped for finishing. The antique should be a bit thinner... not a thick, heavy paste but more the consistency of a lotion. This will allow you to apply it more evenly. The dye in the antique will color the leather. only apply a small area at a time and buff off excess immediately. Only try to cover about 8-12 inches square at once before buffing. Buff with fresh sheepskin.

I seldom apply antique to naked leather. I get a more desireable result applying a good coat of lacquer to the leather first, let dry and then follow with antique and another coat of lacquer for top coat and sealer.

I havent tried mixing antique with anything before, so what is the ratio you are talking? And what would you use to apply the cut antique to the leather with?

Mixing antique with lacquer or tan-kote or bag-kote is an alternative method of application. Mixed with lacquer will result in a lighter antiqued finish, mixed with tan or bag kote will result in more of a stain-like color change. Both must be followed with a topcoat. Do not buff with this method; there should not be any excess to remove. You can vary the mixture ratio to achieve your desired effect. More antique will result in darker color change. I use about about 2 large tablespoons of antique to a pint of finish. Apply with woolskin.

Where do I find oxalic acid?

Your local tandy store should have oxalic acid. it is a powdered crystaline that you mix with water; about 2-3 tablespoons to a quart.

Now you say to finish it off with a lacquer finish like neat lac but wont Neat Lac just crack on me when I sit on it? I have used Neat Lac but have not had good luck with it wicking into the leather, it sits on top of the antique whenever i have used it....

Applying any topcoat can be challenging. The objective is to get enough product on the surface to seal and protect the leather and not so much as to add thickness all while not getting streaks! If you have worked the previous coats into the leather properly and buffed all excess away, top coating should be easy. Use FINESSE! Rubbing too hard will penetrate and streak earlier coats. Rub it in lightly and let dry. don't over-work it as this will also cause streaking and clumping. Rubbing lightly while drying will make a gloss finish into a flat or satin finish. This requires some practice.

Lacquer finishes offer better protection from the elements as they completely seal the surface. Tan kote and bag kote can water spot and stain. Anything sprayed on the surface is more apt to peel and crack, and usually looks more artificial.

I hope this clarifies the process. If not I will try to answer more questions.

Keith

[whinewine]

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...ic=2937&hl=

Here is a thread i started a while back.... this is leather from the same hide.

I didnt get pix of it, but it is pretty much the same thing, except it came off in sheets on the older one....

Thing about using pecards or leather balm is you cant use it over antique or it will moisten the dried paste and ruin everything. Other wist I would use it.... So I am left with having to find something or some way to get a finish over the antique paste.

The way I applied this paste was to use woolskin in a small area, and a cloth to wipe it down once it was rubbed in real well, then move to a new area. Once it was completely covered with antique, i went back over it with a cloth kind of buffing it to get any excess off. I allowed to dry and sprayed it with leather sheen the next day.

So Keith, you are suggesting the following:

1. Strip the finish using Acetone.

2. Strip the antique with mineral spirits.

3. Wash and rinse thoroughly with soap and water after stripping.

4. Wash with oxalic acid.

5. Oil the leather, apply a light coat and let set for at least 8 hours to allow the oil to wick deep into the fibers and not be left on the surface.

6. If you are using a paste antique, it will apply more evenly if mixed with the leather sheen. I prefer Neat-lac or tan-kote for this. If you don't mix the paste antique, thin it a little with mineral spirits.

7. Buff off the excess fairly quickly.

8. Apply the lacquer finish by hand with a woolskin. Using extra lacquer will help to smooth the antique further. Work the lacquer into the leather like oil, not just a thick coat on the surface to dry. This will crack and peel and look like a plastic finish.

Ok, questions: Where do I find oxalic acid? I havent tried mixing antique with anything before, so what is the ratio you are talking? And what would you use to apply the cut antique to the leather with? Now you say to finish it off with a lacquer finish like neat lac but wont Neat Lac just crack on me when I sit on it? I have used Neat Lac but have not had good luck with it wicking into the leather, it sits on top of the antique whenever i have used it....

Wolve:

a] oxalic acid is sold as a dry powder labeled as wood bleach at various lumber/hardware stores (just read the label to make doubly sure).

b] If I'm not mistaken, I don't believe neatlac is compatible with antique, neither with the newer fiebings (garbage, IMO) shoe polish-type antiques, nor the older fiebings turpentine-based antiques.

c] I do not have a clue whether or not the water-based eco-flo antiques are compatible with neatlac. I haven't used them.

d] Fiebings tan-kote is mixable with fiebing's antiques (at least, the newer, shoe polish antiques), in a ratio of, I believe, 20% tan-kote, 80% antique. (But then, it's NOT waterproof... nor is the straight antique waterproof, either. It says so right on the label.)

I hope this helps a little.

russ