New To Leather, Holster Question

[Dieselman]

Hello,

I decided last a couple weeks ago to purchase a couple of Tandy Leather beginners kits and a piece of Double shoulder to try my hand at making pancake holsters for my handguns. I have been playing around with this and made a few holsters since then. I cut out a couple pieces, stitch them together and wet mold the gun to the leather with out too much problem, but even after the leather is completely dry, it doesn't seem to have nearly as much retention as a professionally molded holster would. I am using 7 to 8 ounce material. So what I'm wondering is, what do holster makers do to make the leather so stiff? Is it obtained by treating the leather with something that helps to stiffen it?

Any ideas are greatly appreciated

Thanks ,

James

[Dwight]

James, . . . there can be many answers to "WHY?" what is happening, . . . is happening.

Wet molding is far more than getting a hunk of leather wet and pushing it around an item.

If it is too wet, . . . it'll lose the molding about as fast as you can blink. If it is not wet enough, . . . it won't mold tight.

I usually take mine to the sink, . . . I dunk it in a full sink of water that I can just barely keep my hands in. Any hotter, . . . would be too hot. I bring it out to my forming table, . . . (sometimes to the hydraulic press), . . . and (sometimes to the vacuum bag), . . . and it doesn't make any difference, . . . press, bag, or fingers, . . . work it until you can look inside the holster and see good, sharp edged impressions.

The next step is also very valuable, . . . be VERY careful of extracting the weapon. You can undo half your molding by yanking the gun out. EASE it out, gently.

Next, . . . dry it with some heat. NOT A LOT, . . . ideally you should be looking for something in the 130 degree F range, . . . and err lower if you have to err.

Next, . . . LET IT DRY, . . . I got in the habit early in my leather career of being too anxious, . . . messing with them while they were not fully dried, . . . and I had a pile of scrap for my effort. Could not figure what was wrong, . . . give it a good solid 24 hours, . . . more if you have a lot of humidity.

Another thing is your stitch line and how you are putting them together. Are you cementing the pieces together? That is a for sure for me, . . . stitches on my holsters are really more of a decoration, . . . mine are cemented and you will tear the leather getting them apart.

Your stitch line also needs to be CLOSE to the weapon. I cannot give you a formula, . . . but I can tell you when I sew a holster, . . . it is usually sewn very tight for the gun. I normally re-mold and re-bone my holsters if I do not have my "perfect" pattern for this weapon. That is because it is really tight when I get done with the sewing.

Anyway, . . . try these, . . . they should help.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Dieselman]

Thank you Dwight. I have been taking my leather to the tap and running hot water over top of it. And I do glue the leather together as well as stitch. I'm using Tandy eco-flo leather weld for this.

[katsass]

Hello,

I decided last a couple weeks ago to purchase a couple of Tandy Leather beginners kits and a piece of Double shoulder to try my hand at making pancake holsters for my handguns. I have been playing around with this and made a few holsters since then. I cut out a couple pieces, stitch them together and wet mold the gun to the leather with out too much problem, but even after the leather is completely dry, it doesn't seem to have nearly as much retention as a professionally molded holster would. I am using 7 to 8 ounce material. So what I'm wondering is, what do holster makers do to make the leather so stiff? Is it obtained by treating the leather with something that helps to stiffen it?

Any ideas are greatly appreciated

Thanks ,

James

From the grumpy old guy; Dwight has it down pretty darned well. I make my holsters a bit differently than most. I use two layers of lighter leather bonded together on their flesh sides to produce a single workable piece of leather for construction.. I do this for a couple of reasons, but one is that all of the rigidity and firmness of the leather is formed in the grain layer of that deceased cow's skin. In my method, there are two grain layers, which produce a very firm holster. I use the gun for which the holster is being made when molding (the gun is placed in a plastic freezer bag). I stuff that shooter down in a FAIRLY wet holster, mold carefully by hand and, most of the year (as I live in the desert) I stick the thing in the bright sun until mostly set. Notice that I didn't mention 'boning'. My method of construction precludes boning, and molding and boning are two different things IMO. I then carefully ease the shooter out and allow old MA Nature finish off the drying. In winter I usually have to resort to a cardboard box with the wet holster sitting up off the surface of the cardboard, and place a small space heater facing into it, fan on 'HI', thus blowing warm air over the rig in question. The idea is to remove the moisture as rapidly as possible while heating the thing to a point NOT TO EXCEED 150 degrees, 130 is good. Use of the kitchen oven is NOT recommended. The combination of the rather rapid removal of moisture and heat firms up the leather. As Dwight says, correct stitching is also a must. Mike

[TwinOaks]

There's really nothing to add to Dwight's and Katsass' posts, so I'll just say "Welcome to Leatherworker.net!"

[malabar]

It would be much easier to diagnose a specific issue if we saw a photo of the holsters you are producing.

tk

[Dieselman]

It would be much easier to diagnose a specific issue if we saw a photo of the holsters you are producing.

tk

Ok, but go easy on me, I know it's ugly and i still got a lot to learn! That said, here it is. I feel like I got the leather contoured deep into the trigger guard and ejection port, yet when I turn the holster upside down, the gun just falls right out. The leather just isn't very stiff.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Dieselman

[katsass]

Ok, but go easy on me, I know it's ugly and i still got a lot to learn! That said, here it is. I feel like I got the leather contoured deep into the trigger guard and ejection port, yet when I turn the holster upside down, the gun just falls right out. The leather just isn't very stiff.

FWIW from the old grump; You have a few problems. Right off the belt loops are way too low. That shooter will start to lean out away from you --- SOON. The muzzle will dig into you and the butt will hang out away from you. The leather covers the mag release which can leave you with egg on your face as the mag drops to the ground as you come on target. Bad if you are working on the range --- deadly if you were to be in need as a personal defence weapon. Your stitching is nonexistent along the top of the slide and isn't any better on the lower side. Stitching on both sides needs to be close to your shooter --- it provides the initial portion of the retention, molding adds the rest. The 'contour' inside the trigger guard Is something I would do with only a gentle hand. Too much and you CAN cause the trigger to do things at times you would not like, and to totally rely on mechanical safeties is not always wise. Also, if you think about it, every time you draw or reholster the weapon, you push that deep molding out of shape anyway. I enclose a pic of a little pancake holster done by me way back in the '60s ( before I was more informed on some things) but it shows where the stitching needs to be. This one rode a bit too high also, but being for a Llama .380 (a mini 1911 in most ways) shows some of what I have mentioned. There are other things, but these items are the most important I feel. Hope this helps. Mike

[leatherjunkie]

FWIW from the old grump; You have a few problems. Right off the belt loops are way too low. That shooter will start to lean out away from you --- SOON. The muzzle will dig into you and the butt will hang out away from you. The leather covers the mag release which can leave you with egg on your face as the mag drops to the ground as you come on target. Bad if you are working on the range --- deadly if you were to be in need as a personal defence weapon. Your stitching is nonexistent along the top of the slide and isn't any better on the lower side. Stitching on both sides needs to be close to your shooter --- it provides the initial portion of the retention, molding adds the rest. The 'contour' inside the trigger guard Is something I would do with only a gentle hand. Too much and you CAN cause the trigger to do things at times you would not like, and to totally rely on mechanical safeties is not always wise. Also, if you think about it, every time you draw or reholster the weapon, you push that deep molding out of shape anyway. I enclose a pic of a little pancake holster done by me way back in the '60s ( before I was more informed on some things) but it shows where the stitching needs to be. This one rode a bit too high also, but being for a Llama .380 (a mini 1911 in most ways) shows some of what I have mentioned. There are other things, but these items are the most important I feel. Hope this helps. Mike

yep i agree. the trigger area is molded way too much. you get in a hurry and stuff the gun into holster and the molding may cause trigger to go off. very bad for your leg.

also you need to stitch around the form of the gun minus the barrell opening and handle opening. the stitching will add retention to the holster and keep gun in place.

my holster instuctor said to draw outline of gun on paper. measure the slide thickness divide by 1/2 and add thickness of one piece of leather to that equals the stitch line placement.

excample slide thickness is 1" / 1/2 = 1/2+ 1/8'(thcikness of one leather)=5/8"

now draw a line 5/8" from outline of gun on paper slide side and trigger side. this is your stitch line. glue and stitch in this area. wet form after glueing and stitching gun will stay put better.

also move your belt slots closer to the top of gun more.

[Dieselman]

Excellent! I appreciate the critique, it has certainly shed some light onto problems that need to be corrected. Now I will go back to the table and build another one and apply this knowledge.

Thank you,

James

[Dwight]

James, . . . when you get a chance, . . . stop by Lowes or a local hardware store, . . . buy a can of Weld Wood Contact Cement.

It makes doing leather work a whole lot simpler, . . . just remember to never use it near a fire or flame, . . . and where ever it is, . . . dye will not penetrate.

Other than that (and my wife hates the smell of it), . . . it is a top of the line product for leather workers.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Dieselman]

So I decided that rather than just throw this holster away and start on a second one, I would apply some of the things mentioned by katsass to this one just to see what would happen. I stitched it up close to the gun and that definitely fixed my loose holster problem. Its tight now! I also cut out around the magazine release as he also stated to do. I figure what the hay, might as well make some use out of this one as a test bed if nothing else.

[TwinOaks]

Now that you've got the looseness mostly resolved, I'll also add that the high detail boning (following the exact lines of the pistol) is less important than correctly molding the holster. The boning LOOKS good on a holster, but the purpose is to increase the amount of leather that's in contact with the steel. Increasing the surface contact increases the amount of friction that's holding the pistol in place. Having a deep dent at the trigger means that there's only retention at the trigger. Getting the leather tight around the slide provides tension/friction along the entire length of the slide.

When you get the molding and stitching right, then the additional boning just adds to it.....but as you've seen, it doesn't replace it.

[wizard of tragacanth]

Dieselman, I can see in that second pic that your edges need more work too. Round the edges with sandpaper, start with 120 grit or finer and follow with 320 or such. Then burnish the edges. You can find details on how to burnish, pinned to the top of this forum, titled "Burnishing edges on a holster".

You can also improve the belt slots by wrapping some sandpaper around a paint stir stick, dowel or even a screwdriver to sand them down and make them straighter. You can also use a screwdriver to burnish the inside of the belt slots.

Seal all of the burnishing with a top coat.

Nick

Edited January 14, 2012 by wizard of tragacanth

[wizard of tragacanth]

BTW, if you decide to that you want to do more than a couple of holsters, you will probably want to pick up a coupld of tools: an edger (to trim the edges prior to sanding) and a stitch groover (to cut a trough for the stitching to lay in, which is perfectly parallel to the edge of the holster).

Right now, I do not have time to post links to these. For a stitch groover, I highly recommend the one that can be used free-hand or with a guide... or you can buy two different tools for that if you don't want to fiddle with it. I use a #2 edger but many people use a #3.

Nick

[malabar]

Dieselman,

good idea to try restitching. In my experience, you learn a lot by trying to fix mistakes.

Think of the stitching as the framework for a molded holster. If the stitching isn't right, the molding won't be right, and the gun won't be held securely. Take a look at the pictures below, of a pancake holster I made for a SIG P225. The majority of the pistol rides above your belt instead if below it. To make that work, you need a really stiff back plate for the holsters, and a tightly molded front plate. And to make the molding work, your stitching lines have to be on the money.

[Dieselman]

Dieselman,

good idea to try restitching. In my experience, you learn a lot by trying to fix mistakes.

Think of the stitching as the framework for a molded holster. If the stitching isn't right, the molding won't be right, and the gun won't be held securely. Take a look at the pictures below, of a pancake holster I made for a SIG P225. The majority of the pistol rides above your belt instead if below it. To make that work, you need a really stiff back plate for the holsters, and a tightly molded front plate. And to make the molding work, your stitching lines have to be on the money.

I see exactly what you are saying. Your holster looks good! I am very appreciative of all the help that the folks here are offering. It has opened my eyes to lots of great techniques.