New Holster Model

[malabar]

So this is my finalized version of of my new model. I call it the Shield. It's a quick-detachable, high-ride holster with a steel band in the mouth that adds real crispness to retention. It's made out of two layers of 6/7 veg-tan that have been treated with vinegaroon, then waxed and lacquered with an airbrush. The straps are detachable, so if they stretch they can be easily replaced. The snaps are military-grade pull-the-dots. It's sewn with 346 thread on top and 277 below.

The high-relief molding on the front keeps the back flat, enabling it to be pulled very tightly to the belt, for better concealment.

This version is cut to fit both the Glock 17 & 19.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

tk

Edited January 14, 2012 by malabar

[volpert]

So this is my finalized version of of my new model. I call it the Shield. It's a quick-detachable, high-ride holster with a steel band in the mouth that adds real crispness to retention. It's made out of two layers of 6/7 veg-tan that have been treated with vinegaroon, then waxed and lacquered with an airbrush. The straps are detachable, so if they stretch they can be easily replaced. The snaps are military-grade pull-the-dots. It's sewn with 346 thread on top and 277 below.

The high-relief molding on the front keeps the back flat, enabling it to be pulled very tightly to the belt, for better concealment.

This version is cut to fit both the Glock 17 & 19.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

tk

Very nice !

[wizard of tragacanth]

This design is interesting. I imagine that it is meant to be worn outside the belt but it looks like it may be even better if worn between the belt and the pants, creating more stability.

Nick

[malabar]

This design is interesting. I imagine that it is meant to be worn outside the belt but it looks like it may be even better if worn between the belt and the pants, creating more stability.

Nick

You're right: going inside the belt can help pull snap-on holsters in tight to the body.

I was after a design that gave me that kind of stability without needing to be inside the belt. The placement of inside-the-belt holsters is limited by the location of the belt loops. With this design, you can wrap around the hip, spanning the belt loops. That makes for better concealment, while still optimizing presentation. The side wings give this holster greater stability than you would typically get wit a snap-on design.

tk

[TwoMikes]

I think you need to extend the bottom a little bit more. I've found that a little bit of gun sticking out will pup upward when you sit especially in a car seat. Then you'll develop a bad habit of checking the security of your gun and end up getting made. Also leather at the bottom protects the crown of the barrel and the front sight from being hit and damaged.

[malabar]

I think you need to extend the bottom a little bit more. I've found that a little bit of gun sticking out will pup upward when you sit especially in a car seat. Then you'll develop a bad habit of checking the security of your gun and end up getting made. Also leather at the bottom protects the crown of the barrel and the front sight from being hit and damaged.

Yeah, I agree with you on both counts. This particular arrangement was a request from another instructor with whom I work. He's a very advanced shooter and I deferred to his judgement. I think the risk is minimal here because only a small amount of the muzzle is exposed -- but I typically would not expose even that amount.

These are the reasons why I don't make a yaqui belt slide-type holster. I've had several folks ask for them, and I explain that they can be dangerous for a variety of reasons, but people think they are the cat's meow -- because they are cheap and flexible.

Ever seen this?

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/safety-warning-worn-leather-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/

The human factor here is undeniable. The shooter had to know his holster had retired. But people do stupid things and I'd hate to see one of my holsters involved in this kind of an accident.

tk

[katsass]

So this is my finalized version of of my new model. I call it the Shield. It's a quick-detachable, high-ride holster with a steel band in the mouth that adds real crispness to retention. It's made out of two layers of 6/7 veg-tan that have been treated with vinegaroon, then waxed and lacquered with an airbrush. The straps are detachable, so if they stretch they can be easily replaced. The snaps are military-grade pull-the-dots. It's sewn with 346 thread on top and 277 below.

The high-relief molding on the front keeps the back flat, enabling it to be pulled very tightly to the belt, for better concealment.

This version is cut to fit both the Glock 17 & 19.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

tk

From the old grump; malabar, let me first say that I have absolutely no kicks with your workmanship in any way, you've done good, however, being old enough to have seen high ride holsters of many designs come and go, I think that you'll find that your rig MAY (notice that I say MAY) begin to 'fall-out' fairly soon. You have two (nice and wide) straps which are a weak point IMO, but not the only one. Being as low down as they are they will tend to have the weight of the shooter trying to pull away from the wearer's body from the start, thus applying a stretching torque to them right from day one. Being replaceable you have obviously taken this into consideration, but may not realized how fast the stretching may take place, and also where it may take place. High ride holster have a limit and apply a different type of pull to the belt carrying them, the belt will also try to stretch away from the body, more so as the gun rides higher. Years ago there was a rig (one of the best designed IMO) called the 'semi-shoulder' rig, that utilized high riding, cross draw, breakfront holsters. It was two piece (with inter-changeable holsters) which consisted of a 4" to 5" leather covered steel belt loop. It had a steel lined tang which rose about 2" above the belt. To this was attached the holster (with steel lining in it's back) by use of 'pull-the-dot' snaps. The holsters rode with the gun's muzzle just below the bottom of the belt --- as does yours. Those puppies sold like hotcakes! They then went the way of the unicorn. The 'fall-out' just could not be controlled, the belt was also under tension and stretched. 'Fall-out' ultimately reared it's ugly head and the holsters (luckily convertible to standard belt wear) ended up down on the wearer's waist.

Now I'm considered a somewhat grumpy, old (some say that when I was born the Dead Sea was only a little bit sick) and a bit pessimistic. I'm not saying that your design will ultimately fall prey to 'fall-out', however, I'd wear one for five or six hours daily for some months to prove the design. Actually, I hope it works. Mike

[Haystacker]

I like your out of the box thinking. If this is actually worn between the belt and pants then the stability issue may be offset. I'm with the "Old Grump" on this one. I sure hope it works.

[malabar]

From the old grump; malabar, let me first say that I have absolutely no kicks with your workmanship in any way, you've done good, however, being old enough to have seen high ride holsters of many designs come and go, I think that you'll find that your rig MAY (notice that I say MAY) begin to 'fall-out' fairly soon. You have two (nice and wide) straps which are a weak point IMO, but not the only one. Being as low down as they are they will tend to have the weight of the shooter trying to pull away from the wearer's body from the start, thus applying a stretching torque to them right from day one. Being replaceable you have obviously taken this into consideration, but may not realized how fast the stretching may take place, and also where it may take place. High ride holster have a limit and apply a different type of pull to the belt carrying them, the belt will also try to stretch away from the body, more so as the gun rides higher. Years ago there was a rig (one of the best designed IMO) called the 'semi-shoulder' rig, that utilized high riding, cross draw, breakfront holsters. It was two piece (with inter-changeable holsters) which consisted of a 4" to 5" leather covered steel belt loop. It had a steel lined tang which rose about 2" above the belt. To this was attached the holster (with steel lining in it's back) by use of 'pull-the-dot' snaps. The holsters rode with the gun's muzzle just below the bottom of the belt --- as does yours. Those puppies sold like hotcakes! They then went the way of the unicorn. The 'fall-out' just could not be controlled, the belt was also under tension and stretched. 'Fall-out' ultimately reared it's ugly head and the holsters (luckily convertible to standard belt wear) ended up down on the wearer's waist.

Now I'm considered a somewhat grumpy, old (some say that when I was born the Dead Sea was only a little bit sick) and a bit pessimistic. I'm not saying that your design will ultimately fall prey to 'fall-out', however, I'd wear one for five or six hours daily for some months to prove the design. Actually, I hope it works. Mike

Mike,

I'm not offended. I appreciate your candidness. And the insight that comes from having worked on holsters so long.

I have to see if I can track down some pictures of the holster you're talking about.

"Fall-Out" is a good term. I haven't used that term before, but I will from now on <g>. I agree that's the issue. If I can keep it pulled-in tight, it's a winner.

I'm hoping that the wide "wings" will help stabilize the tendency to pull away from the body. And by passing the straps through the wings of the holster, it keeps them short and tight to the belt. And a real gun belt is essential, or it will torque the belt. Maybe specialized leather for the straps will help.

I suspect a lot of it may depend on the specific gun. I carry a SIG P226, which is one of the more challenging guns for CCW leather for (although not quite as bad as the Beretta 92). I've worn one for a few weeks now and it seems to e doing OK, but I don't know how it will hold up month after month.

tk

[katsass]

Mike,

I'm not offended. I appreciate your candidness. And the insight that comes from having worked on holsters so long.

I have to see if I can track down some pictures of the holster you're talking about.

"Fall-Out" is a good term. I haven't used that term before, but I will from now on <g>. I agree that's the issue. If I can keep it pulled-in tight, it's a winner.

I'm hoping that the wide "wings" will help stabilize the tendency to pull away from the body. And by passing the straps through the wings of the holster, it keeps them short and tight to the belt. And a real gun belt is essential, or it will torque the belt. Maybe specialized leather for the straps will help.

I suspect a lot of it may depend on the specific gun. I carry a SIG P226, which is one of the more challenging guns for CCW leather for (although not quite as bad as the Beretta 92). I've worn one for a few weeks now and it seems to e doing OK, but I don't know how it will hold up month after month.

tk

Well, the holster was available in the late '50's sometime and into about '61 or so, i don't remember who made it. Actually it was a 'pull through' holster in that the gun was pulled through where the welt would be. Adjustable spring tension helped hold the shooter in the holster. Any auto with a bunch of weight in the grip will be difficult to keep in tight I expect. I carried a Glock 21 for a while on duty and it did well in a duty holster, but I could carry my S&W 539 (all steel) which actually weighed more than the loaded Glock, while off duty because the balance was better. Anyhoo, I do hope that you have the answer to carrying a hi-rise rig. Mike

P.S. I actually carried a 3" S&W M-24 more than anything else off duty.

P.P.S. There is a pic of a semi-shoulder rig on Google Images. It shows a J Frame Smith in it but doesn't show the setup very well. With anything larger than the litte Smith the thing just didn't work too well --- especially for the money back then.

Edited January 15, 2012 by katsass

[TwoMikes]

Yikes.... that is scary. I wonder if his pant's belt loop pushed the leather in just enough that an edge caught on the trigger, then bammo.

[malabar]

Well, the holster was available in the late '50's sometime and into about '61 or so, i don't remember who made it. Actually it was a 'pull through' holster in that the gun was pulled through where the welt would be. Adjustable spring tension helped hold the shooter in the holster. Any auto with a bunch of weight in the grip will be difficult to keep in tight I expect. I carried a Glock 21 for a while on duty and it did well in a duty holster, but I could carry my S&W 539 (all steel) which actually weighed more than the loaded Glock, while off duty because the balance was better. Anyhoo, I do hope that you have the answer to carrying a hi-rise rig. Mike

P.S. I actually carried a 3" S&W M-24 more than anything else off duty.

P.P.S. There is a pic of a semi-shoulder rig on Google Images. It shows a J Frame Smith in it but doesn't show the setup very well. With anything larger than the litte Smith the thing just didn't work too well --- especially for the money back then.

Thanks for the tip!

You know the funny thing is, I've worked on a design that uses the same principle -- a steel-reinforced paddle that held the gun above the belt. But my first prototype was a miserable failure and I was so disheartened I haven't yet gone back to it. <g>

So this one attached to the belt via those little straps that wrap around the paddle?

tk

[malabar]

Yikes.... that is scary. I wonder if his pant's belt loop pushed the leather in just enough that an edge caught on the trigger, then bammo.

I dunno. But he had to know that the holster was going bad. The leather that curled into the trigger guard really looks worn. I think it's a bad design, but user error is a significant factor here. Along with the squishy Glock trigger.....

tk

[malabar]

I like your out of the box thinking. If this is actually worn between the belt and pants then the stability issue may be offset. I'm with the "Old Grump" on this one. I sure hope it works.

Time will tell. But I think you're right: If fall-off is a problem that I can't fix, putting it between the belt would almost certainly fix it.

tk

[katsass]

Thanks for the tip!

You know the funny thing is, I've worked on a design that uses the same principle -- a steel-reinforced paddle that held the gun above the belt. But my first prototype was a miserable failure and I was so disheartened I haven't yet gone back to it. <g>

So this one attached to the belt via those little straps that wrap around the paddle?

tk

The little paddle was (is) a steel belt loop, the belt goes through it --- no straps. The pic I found on Google showed up after I looked for '1950 style semi-shoulder holster'. As I said before it isn't too good a pic. I'm digging around to see if I can find a better one. I think that that was the biggest problem --- everything rode on the belt. and the addition of a paddle would have made it work --- maybe. OH, this rig was made by Smith & Wesson. Mike

TIME LAPSE - I found the pic again and got a better one to see, so disregard my statement(s) on the belt loop..

OK, I guess that I'm getting old and my memory is fading --- among other things. It looks like the damned thing is attached to the belt with (narrow) straps, not quite how I remembered it.--- but, as said, I must be getting old. I would think that maybe a Kydex paddle (similar to AKER's type) would do he rig a whole bunch of help, along with heavier straps.. As I mentioned, these rigs had interchangeable holsters, all the way up to 4" Colt and S&W wheelguns. S&W may have made them for their 39 series auto's at the time but since LEO's in the Dept I was in were not allowed auto's back then,(officially) we didn't carry them anywhere that the brass could see them, so I never saw one for an auto.. Mike

P.S. These 'pull-through' holsters would loosen up after time, even with the tension screw. I have an old Hoyte shoulder rig in my junk somewhere that I ended up puting a safety strap on to ensure that I didn't lose a Mod 19 Smith while leaning out of a helecopter --- as a friend of mine did. An old lady found his shooter on the edge of a dry lakebed and brought it into the office about two weeks later. He took a bunch of crap over that one.

Edited January 16, 2012 by katsass

[marine mp]

Malabar, I'm interested as to how the vinegarooned leather will hold the molding. Is it stiff or is it semi-stiff?? (Don't sound right!!!!!!!).. All of my 'rooned holsters seem kinda limp compared to the oil-dyed holsters that retain their shape and are stiff. So much so that I no longer use the vinegaroon for holsters. What say you? Semper-fi MIke

[malabar]

Malabar, I'm interested as to how the vinegarooned leather will hold the molding. Is it stiff or is it semi-stiff?? (Don't sound right!!!!!!!).. All of my 'rooned holsters seem kinda limp compared to the oil-dyed holsters that retain their shape and are stiff. So much so that I no longer use the vinegaroon for holsters. What say you? Semper-fi MIke

There's no doubt in my mind that 'roon changes the leather, but it seems to work for me.

I mold and bake mine first, then when they are completely dry, I dip them in the 'roon, then let them dry for a bit, then redip them. I let them dry for at least 24 hours before doing anything further. I then coat the inside with Aussie Conditioner, a kind of soft wax. They don't seem to soften at all, and the 'roon creates a finish that goes right through the leather and makes them pretty water resistant.

FWIW, I like my holsters on the hard side, firmer than what you get, for example, from Milt Sparks. The 'roon does not seem to interfere with that. But folks seem to get really mixed results with it.

How are you applying your 'roon?

tk

[malabar]

The little paddle was (is) a steel belt loop, the belt goes through it --- no straps. The pic I found on Google showed up after I looked for '1950 style semi-shoulder holster'. As I said before it isn't too good a pic. I'm digging around to see if I can find a better one. I think that that was the biggest problem --- everything rode on the belt. and the addition of a paddle would have made it work --- maybe. OH, this rig was made by Smith & Wesson. Mike

TIME LAPSE - I found the pic again and got a better one to see, so disregard my statement(s) on the belt loop..

OK, I guess that I'm getting old and my memory is fading --- among other things. It looks like the damned thing is attached to the belt with (narrow) straps, not quite how I remembered it.--- but, as said, I must be getting old. I would think that maybe a Kydex paddle (similar to AKER's type) would do he rig a whole bunch of help, along with heavier straps.. As I mentioned, these rigs had interchangeable holsters, all the way up to 4" Colt and S&W wheelguns. S&W may have made them for their 39 series auto's at the time but since LEO's in the Dept I was in were not allowed auto's back then,(officially) we didn't carry them anywhere that the brass could see them, so I never saw one for an auto.. Mike

P.S. These 'pull-through' holsters would loosen up after time, even with the tension screw. I have an old Hoyte shoulder rig in my junk somewhere that I ended up puting a safety strap on to ensure that I didn't lose a Mod 19 Smith while leaning out of a helecopter --- as a friend of mine did. An old lady found his shooter on the edge of a dry lakebed and brought it into the office about two weeks later. He took a bunch of crap over that one.

Mike,

thanks for the photo. That's an interesting concept. Those little straps do seem like a weak point.

I wonder if space-age materials might have helped keep its rigidity?

OTOH...

I remember talking to a real serious IPSC shooter (one of those guys sponsored on a shooting team) a while back, and he was telling my he used kydex holsters for compttition. I asked him how it held up, and he said he wore at least one out every year. Most people will never wear one out, of course, but he practices with it every day. And maybe that's an object lesson.

I tend to think of a good holster as being a "forever" kind of accessory, but maybe that's not really reasonable. Clearly, the more money you pay for it the longer you expect it to last.

tk

[katsass]

Mike,

thanks for the photo. That's an interesting concept. Those little straps do seem like a weak point.

I wonder if space-age materials might have helped keep its rigidity?

OTOH...

I remember talking to a real serious IPSC shooter (one of those guys sponsored on a shooting team) a while back, and he was telling my he used kydex holsters for compttition. I asked him how it held up, and he said he wore at least one out every year. Most people will never wear one out, of course, but he practices with it every day. And maybe that's an object lesson.

I tend to think of a good holster as being a "forever" kind of accessory, but maybe that's not really reasonable. Clearly, the more money you pay for it the longer you expect it to last.

tk

From the grump; As to a firm holster, I use two layers of 4/5, 5/6, or a mix of each. I bond them together on their flesh sides to form a single piece of workable material. With two grain layers, when properly molded, warmed and dried, I get very firm holsters --- much more rigid than a single piece of equal weight. It does take a bit more stitching, however, but you end up with a lined holster in effect, along with the ability to dye different colors. I agree, a 'forever' rig doesn't seem logical, however by looking through the book "Packing Iron" I see quite a few holsters that sure look serviceable --- at 100+ years of age. If mine last anything close of that long I'll be happy --- and long gone. Maybe someday down the road someone will find an old one of mine, see the 'katsass' logo, and scratch his head in curiosity.

OTOH I don't think much of Kydex for holsters, it just goes against the grain, sort of. But, as a paddle attached to the back of the holster, that goes inside the belt (and trousers) and is molded roughly to the thigh, it might provide some (enough?) stability against 'fall-out' --- just a thought. Mike

[KAYAK45]

Got a question on your construction technique. What type (thick and wide) steel are you using, if you don't mind saying?

Thanks

Kevin

[katsass]

Got a question on your construction technique. What type (thick and wide) steel are you using, if you don't mind saying?

Thanks

Kevin

Well KAYAK, from the old grump; I don't use any metal in my work, and I don't think that malabar does either. The pic of the little rig I enclosed was made by Smith& Wesson or possibly Bucheimer (spelling?). It was made back in the late '50s but ended up being discontinued. Mike

[KAYAK45]

"So this is my finalized version of of my new model. I call it the Shield. It's a quick-detachable, high-ride holster with a steel band in the mouth that adds real crispness to retention."

Again the question on the steel used.

[malabar]

"So this is my finalized version of of my new model. I call it the Shield. It's a quick-detachable, high-ride holster with a steel band in the mouth that adds real crispness to retention."

Again the question on the steel used.

Sorry, been out of pocket all evening. Yeah, I sandwich a a steel band under the reinforcement strap on my IWB's and on my new model. It's 5/8 steel strapping, about .020 thick. I get mine as scrap from local business, but it's available direct from outfits like uline

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-823/Steel-Strapping/5-8-x-020-x-2468-Standard-Grade-Steel-Strapping

It takes a little bit of playing to get the hang of bending it once the holster is assembled, but other than that, it's easy to work with.

tk

[malabar]

From the grump; As to a firm holster, I use two layers of 4/5, 5/6, or a mix of each. I bond them together on their flesh sides to form a single piece of workable material. With two grain layers, when properly molded, warmed and dried, I get very firm holsters --- much more rigid than a single piece of equal weight. It does take a bit more stitching, however, but you end up with a lined holster in effect, along with the ability to dye different colors. I agree, a 'forever' rig doesn't seem logical, however by looking through the book "Packing Iron" I see quite a few holsters that sure look serviceable --- at 100+ years of age. If mine last anything close of that long I'll be happy --- and long gone. Maybe someday down the road someone will find an old one of mine, see the 'katsass' logo, and scratch his head in curiosity.

OTOH I don't think much of Kydex for holsters, it just goes against the grain, sort of. But, as a paddle attached to the back of the holster, that goes inside the belt (and trousers) and is molded roughly to the thigh, it might provide some (enough?) stability against 'fall-out' --- just a thought. Mike

Mike,

I'm not really expressing an opinion here, because I don't really have answers, just questions.....

I'm assuming the long-term longevity of a holster is affected by a variety of factors, including materials storage and the style of holster. For example, I have a Lawrence gunfighter rig for a single six that I think dates from the 1960s. I used it a lot in the late 70s when I got it, then didn't touch it for a couple of decades. When I took it out of the box a couple of yeas ago, the stitching on the belt had disintegrated, and the holster was going, too. I assume storage and lack of use are factors, but I'm doubtful it would have held up a whole lot better with daily use. Similarly, I have a Lawrence pistol belt from the late 70s (Actually, my oldest boy liberated it 10 years ago). It was a real beauty -- lacquered, three layers, suede lining, 1/4' thick. It was the stiffest belt I had ever seen when I bought it. Today it's as limp as a wet noodle, and the surface leather is eroding. it was $25 or $30 when I bought it and I think I got my money's worth.

I have a S&W OWB holster for my model 28 also from the '70s that's still serviceable. It was not a particularly complex design, just line leather folded over with a welt and a retaining strap. But that might be why it's still serviceable -- changes in the leather are less important than if it had been heavily molded.

I really like the holsters you make, they're very distinctive and I'd like to be able to handle one some day, to get a real fee for the fit of the gun, etc. My holsters are a different style, I like the feel of the gun "popping" in and out of the body, and most of mine are flat to the body for concealment and comfort. When I make a pancake, I laminate the back plate of the holster for precisely the reasons you mention -- it creates a stiff spine that allows the holster to ride higher, for a better presentation. But I'm starting to think that any design that pushes the limits of the leather also will have a shorter life span. I don't really know how long you can expect a heavily molded holster to last. 10 tears? 20 years? I doubt it will be 40 or 50.

I've used a kydex holster for training and they have their pluses and minuses. Never seen one I like for concealment. I think leather is always going to be more comfortable. But it you're going to be in a marine environment, where your holster will be getting wet regularly, they have an advantage. And they clean up real easy. I used a quick-detachable avenger last month in a carbine class I took. I liked it better than the kydex holster I had used before for training. But it was a rainy day, and I was down in the mud with it, and the natural color of the horsehide looks pretty "aged." <g>

But I think you're right that kydex can be used to enhance a good leather holster. Paddles are a good example. I've also made clips for IWBs whose functions would be hard to duplicate in leather.

tk

Edited January 17, 2012 by malabar

[katsass]

"So this is my finalized version of of my new model. I call it the Shield. It's a quick-detachable, high-ride holster with a steel band in the mouth that adds real crispness to retention."

Again the question on the steel used.

KAYAK; Since malabar and I were speaking of an entirely different holster set-up, the original post was completely out of my thoughts. Your kind and courteous elucidation should be a fine example to us all. Thank you. Mike[/url]