New Holster Model

[katsass]

Got a question on your construction technique. What type (thick and wide) steel are you using, if you don't mind saying?

Thanks

Kevin

Well KAYAK, from the old grump; I don't use any metal in my work, and I don't think that malabar does either. The pic of the little rig I enclosed was made by Smith& Wesson or possibly Bucheimer (spelling?). It was made back in the late '50s but ended up being discontinued. Mike

[KAYAK45]

"So this is my finalized version of of my new model. I call it the Shield. It's a quick-detachable, high-ride holster with a steel band in the mouth that adds real crispness to retention."

Again the question on the steel used.

[malabar]

"So this is my finalized version of of my new model. I call it the Shield. It's a quick-detachable, high-ride holster with a steel band in the mouth that adds real crispness to retention."

Again the question on the steel used.

Sorry, been out of pocket all evening. Yeah, I sandwich a a steel band under the reinforcement strap on my IWB's and on my new model. It's 5/8 steel strapping, about .020 thick. I get mine as scrap from local business, but it's available direct from outfits like uline

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-823/Steel-Strapping/5-8-x-020-x-2468-Standard-Grade-Steel-Strapping

It takes a little bit of playing to get the hang of bending it once the holster is assembled, but other than that, it's easy to work with.

tk

[malabar]

From the grump; As to a firm holster, I use two layers of 4/5, 5/6, or a mix of each. I bond them together on their flesh sides to form a single piece of workable material. With two grain layers, when properly molded, warmed and dried, I get very firm holsters --- much more rigid than a single piece of equal weight. It does take a bit more stitching, however, but you end up with a lined holster in effect, along with the ability to dye different colors. I agree, a 'forever' rig doesn't seem logical, however by looking through the book "Packing Iron" I see quite a few holsters that sure look serviceable --- at 100+ years of age. If mine last anything close of that long I'll be happy --- and long gone. Maybe someday down the road someone will find an old one of mine, see the 'katsass' logo, and scratch his head in curiosity.

OTOH I don't think much of Kydex for holsters, it just goes against the grain, sort of. But, as a paddle attached to the back of the holster, that goes inside the belt (and trousers) and is molded roughly to the thigh, it might provide some (enough?) stability against 'fall-out' --- just a thought. Mike

Mike,

I'm not really expressing an opinion here, because I don't really have answers, just questions.....

I'm assuming the long-term longevity of a holster is affected by a variety of factors, including materials storage and the style of holster. For example, I have a Lawrence gunfighter rig for a single six that I think dates from the 1960s. I used it a lot in the late 70s when I got it, then didn't touch it for a couple of decades. When I took it out of the box a couple of yeas ago, the stitching on the belt had disintegrated, and the holster was going, too. I assume storage and lack of use are factors, but I'm doubtful it would have held up a whole lot better with daily use. Similarly, I have a Lawrence pistol belt from the late 70s (Actually, my oldest boy liberated it 10 years ago). It was a real beauty -- lacquered, three layers, suede lining, 1/4' thick. It was the stiffest belt I had ever seen when I bought it. Today it's as limp as a wet noodle, and the surface leather is eroding. it was $25 or $30 when I bought it and I think I got my money's worth.

I have a S&W OWB holster for my model 28 also from the '70s that's still serviceable. It was not a particularly complex design, just line leather folded over with a welt and a retaining strap. But that might be why it's still serviceable -- changes in the leather are less important than if it had been heavily molded.

I really like the holsters you make, they're very distinctive and I'd like to be able to handle one some day, to get a real fee for the fit of the gun, etc. My holsters are a different style, I like the feel of the gun "popping" in and out of the body, and most of mine are flat to the body for concealment and comfort. When I make a pancake, I laminate the back plate of the holster for precisely the reasons you mention -- it creates a stiff spine that allows the holster to ride higher, for a better presentation. But I'm starting to think that any design that pushes the limits of the leather also will have a shorter life span. I don't really know how long you can expect a heavily molded holster to last. 10 tears? 20 years? I doubt it will be 40 or 50.

I've used a kydex holster for training and they have their pluses and minuses. Never seen one I like for concealment. I think leather is always going to be more comfortable. But it you're going to be in a marine environment, where your holster will be getting wet regularly, they have an advantage. And they clean up real easy. I used a quick-detachable avenger last month in a carbine class I took. I liked it better than the kydex holster I had used before for training. But it was a rainy day, and I was down in the mud with it, and the natural color of the horsehide looks pretty "aged." <g>

But I think you're right that kydex can be used to enhance a good leather holster. Paddles are a good example. I've also made clips for IWBs whose functions would be hard to duplicate in leather.

tk

Edited January 17, 2012 by malabar

[katsass]

"So this is my finalized version of of my new model. I call it the Shield. It's a quick-detachable, high-ride holster with a steel band in the mouth that adds real crispness to retention."

Again the question on the steel used.

KAYAK; Since malabar and I were speaking of an entirely different holster set-up, the original post was completely out of my thoughts. Your kind and courteous elucidation should be a fine example to us all. Thank you. Mike[/url]

[katsass]

Mike,

I'm not really expressing an opinion here, because I don't really have answers, just questions.....

I'm assuming the long-term longevity of a holster is affected by a variety of factors, including materials storage and the style of holster. For example, I have a Lawrence gunfighter rig for a single six that I think dates from the 1960s. I used it a lot in the late 70s when I got it, then didn't touch it for a couple of decades. When I took it out of the box a couple of yeas ago, the stitching on the belt had disintegrated, and the holster was going, too. I assume storage and lack of use are factors, but I'm doubtful it would have held up a whole lot better with daily use. Similarly, I have a Lawrence pistol belt from the late 70s (Actually, my oldest boy liberated it 10 years ago). It was a real beauty -- lacquered, three layers, suede lining, 1/4' thick. It was the stiffest belt I had ever seen when I bought it. Today it's as limp as a wet noodle, and the surface leather is eroding. it was $25 or $30 when I bought it and I think I got my money's worth.

I have a S&W OWB holster for my model 28 also from the '70s that's still serviceable. It was not a particularly complex design, just line leather folded over with a welt and a retaining strap. But that might be why it's still serviceable -- changes in the leather are less important than if it had been heavily molded.

I really like the holsters you make, they're very distinctive and I'd like to be able to handle one some day, to get a real fee for the fit of the gun, etc. My holsters are a different style, I like the feel of the gun "popping" in and out of the body, and most of mine are flat to the body for concealment and comfort. When I make a pancake, I laminate the back plate of the holster for precisely the reasons you mention -- it creates a stiff spine that allows the holster to ride higher, for a better presentation. But I'm starting to think that any design that pushes the limits of the leather also will have a shorter life span. I don't really know how long you can expect a heavily molded holster to last. 10 tears? 20 years? I doubt it will be 40 or 50.

I've used a kydex holster for training and they have their pluses and minuses. Never seen one I like for concealment. I think leather is always going to be more comfortable. But it you're going to be in a marine environment, where your holster will be getting wet regularly, they have an advantage. And they clean up real easy. I used a quick-detachable avenger last month in a carbine class I took. I liked it better than the kydex holster I had used before for training. But it was a rainy day, and I was down in the mud with it, and the natural color of the horsehide looks pretty "aged." <g>

But I think you're right that kydex can be used to enhance a good leather holster. Paddles are a good example. I've also made clips for IWBs whose functions would be hard to duplicate in leather.

tk

tk, I think you are correct in the variable factors effecting the longevity of holsters. Leather, stitching, design, care and environment all come to my mind. It seems to me that over the past 50 or so years, commercial construction of holsters has leaned toward lighter leather. I'm not sure, however I have a suspicion that commercial makers 'introduce' firmness in their rigs in the molding stage, possibility with an alcohol bath., to make up for the lighter weight, along with much more 'boning' type molding. I do use lighter leather than most, however I use two layers of it, bonded together to reach the weight I feel sufficient to the task. John Bianchi started out doing this, however I am sure that this type of construction can cause difficulties in the mechanized manufacturing process --- as well as increased cost. I don't see any commercial mass produced pieces made this way. As to stitching I feel that hand saddle stitching will hold up better than the machine lock stitch. Hand stitching however is generally not compatible with modern machinery and construction techniques --- if for no other reason but cost. Many outfits like to use synthetic stitching thread, I just don't care for it. Some years ago while involved in the testing of commercial holsters which may be issued to the troops, a unique problem arose with a new model holster from a large, well know manufacturer. The holster was a 'sandwich' style, stitched (by machine) on both edges with a monofilament thread. A small (around 100 #) female clerk was recruited to do nothing more than firmly grasp the butt of the holstered (blue) gun, then fall to the ground while holding on to the shooter. That holster unzipped like tearing a postage stamp from a perforated page. Naturally it was not selected by the Dept. The upshot in my mind is that many of the synthetics will cut through leather easier than good old waxed linen thread. Now, I was taught to stitch by a WWI cavalry soldier, and a grumpier, louder and more profane speaking old man there never was, but he taught me how to stitch well --- at least I believe so. He swore that no machine stitch will hold up as well as a well done saddle stitch. Later I heard the the Army (back then) would not even purchase tack for their horses unless it was hand stitched. Actually I believe what he said, after fully understanding the machine made lock stitch. Care and environment go hand in hand, in my opinion. The type of care for a rig worn along the gulf coast will differ from one worn out here in the desert. Different climate = different needs for the leather. As to design, I'm very much a traditionalist. I don't care much for straps, multi-carry options or 'adjustable' things. To me, less is more, generally speaking. Along the lines of design we get into concealed carry. A truism for concealed carry is that "you dress to conceal". A whole bunch of folks argue this point, swearing up and down that they can carry a full sized 1911 while clad in shorts, a tank top and flip flops while the shooter remains totally concealed. They even point to the fact that 'George' down the street, or the wife just can't see their gun while clad this way. That may be so, but George nor Mama are the bad guys. The real bad guy, one that has spent time in the joint or even a County jail, has learned to OBSERVE. They watch everyone and anything going on while sitting,behind bars, walking the yard, or on a work detail. They note the slightest things, and often the biggest give away to a person carrying concealed is the person himself. With the weight of a shooter on your hip, forward in your appendix,or in the small of your back, unconscious movements will give you away. It actually takes years of constant carry to become (almost) unaware of that thing on your belt or in a shoulder rig. I don't know how often I have observed a LEO unconsciously reach down and reposition that heavy Sam Browne rig on his waist, but it's a lot.. Most folks don't even pay attention to the folks around them. Who looks at the guy standing outside the market as you enter. What is different about someone sitting and relaxing in the mall. If they are the bad guy, they are watching people, and nobody notices them. as they look for victims --- AND the plain clothes cop.

OK, I'm off the soapbox. Thank you for your opinion of my work, I appreciate it. We do have different styles and that's just as things should be. All of my stuff is made to order, however a local sporting goods store has asked me to make a couple of samples. They feel that an actual holster or two would assist in sales for me, and I'm sure that they are right. As soon as I can clean up what orders I do have I'm considering making one for a 1911 and possibly one for a Smith K-Frame. When that occurs I wouldn't be too opposed to shipping one to you to play with for a week or two prior to getting it over to the store. Good luck in your leatherwork. Mike

Edited January 17, 2012 by katsass

[Colt Hammerless]

Katsass, I had to laugh at your story about your friend losing his Smith out of the helicopter. I have a friend in Border Patrol, and they've been having lots of problems with their shoulder holsters. Lots of guns falling out unexpectedly. One guy he knows was leaning out of a helicopter searching the desert brush when he lost his H&K. I don't think they ever found it. My friend has had his fall out several times. Once in a meeting at work, once in a hotel as he was opening the door to his room, and once in a grocery store parking lot while he was off duty and not in uniform. Some people in the parking lot started to scramble, but oddly, no one called the police. That fall broke his rear site, and he had to get a new gun. Sorry for the tangent, back to regular programming.

Colt Hammerless

[katsass]

Katsass, I had to laugh at your story about your friend losing his Smith out of the helicopter. I have a friend in Border Patrol, and they've been having lots of problems with their shoulder holsters. Lots of guns falling out unexpectedly. One guy he knows was leaning out of a helicopter searching the desert brush when he lost his H&K. I don't think they ever found it. My friend has had his fall out several times. Once in a meeting at work, once in a hotel as he was opening the door to his room, and once in a grocery store parking lot while he was off duty and not in uniform. Some people in the parking lot started to scramble, but oddly, no one called the police. That fall broke his rear site, and he had to get a new gun. Sorry for the tangent, back to regular programming.

Colt Hammerless

Well, the worst I ever heard of was a LEO from my Dept.that just always seemed to step in it. He hit a public restroom, jumped into a stall, and dropped his trousers. His off duty shooter somehow fell and skidded into the next (occupied) stall. That patron beat feet it out in a hurry and called the Dept. to report a strange man playing with a gun in the restroom. Mike

Edited January 17, 2012 by katsass

[K-Man]

Malabar:

You can take this information for what you deem it's worth. From the looks of it, your design apprears to be worn only in the appendix area. A high riding holster such as that, and worn in that area, is not going to conceal well at all for the vast majority of people because of body shape. A high riding holster in and of itself has the great tendency to lean out away from the body, and with all of the form of the holster on the outside, you just compound the issue. You thus have two issues - lack of concealability and discomfort in wearing the gun/holster. If you go with a paddle style attachment, you're still going to need some way to secure it in place, otherwise it's going to slide all over the waistband.

With respect to hand sewing versus machine stitch, my experience has been that I have never had a stitch pop loose or the thread deteriorate with machine sewing. I've used nylon bonded thread exclusively. Some of the gear I've made has lasted for over 10 years and still functions today. I would estimate that I have made 15,000 pieces in the last 8-9 years alone. Some of that gear has been used in some pretty harsh environments to include the middle east and special ops. The machines I have used to sew nearly all of my products has been the Artisan Toro 3000 and Cobra Class 4.

Good luck with the holster design.

Edited January 17, 2012 by K-Man

[malabar]

Malabar:

You can take this information for what you deem it's worth. From the looks of it, your design apprears to be worn only in the appendix area. A high riding holster such as that, and worn in that area, is not going to conceal well at all for the vast majority of people because of body shape. A high riding holster in and of itself has the great tendency to lean out away from the body, and with all of the form of the holster on the outside, you just compound the issue. You thus have two issues - lack of concealability and discomfort in wearing the gun/holster. If you go with a paddle style attachment, you're still going to need some way to secure it in place, otherwise it's going to slide all over the waistband.

With respect to hand sewing versus machine stitch, my experience has been that I have never had a stitch pop loose or the thread deteriorate with machine sewing. I've used nylon bonded thread exclusively. Some of the gear I've made has lasted for over 10 years and still functions today. I would estimate that I have made 15,000 pieces in the last 8-9 years alone. Some of that gear has been used in some pretty harsh environments to include the middle east and special ops. The machines I have used to sew nearly all of my products has been the Artisan Toro 3000 and Cobra Class 4.

Good luck with the holster design.

I agree that I don't think it would work very well in the Appendix area, but it's intended to be worn around 3:30-4 o'clock, just behind the strong side hip, as in the photo below (this is an earlier prototype). It seems to work pretty well there. I've worn the prototype for several weeks without problem (and an earlier prototype before that), but the real question is, what will happen with six months of daily wear.

What I read into Mike's comment about the paddle was that it would be a way of exerting counter force on the holster, and I think he's right. Think of the holster as a see-saw and the belt as the fulcrum. Gravity pulls down on the grip of the pistol, and the pistol's natural tendency is to pivot on the fulcrum. But because the holster extends below the fulcrum, and the straps hold it tight, it stays rigidly in place. Until the straps start to stretch. Mike's suggestion is that a "paddle" will help oppose the force of gravity and keep the holster tucked in tight.

My wife is suggesting making special straps with a non-stretching layer of vinyl laminated inside. It's an interesting idea that I'll almost certainly try.

I'm using the Cobra Class 4 as well and am very pleased with it, and I'm using heavier thread than many. But is it as good as hand stitching? Many years ago (OK, it's like 30), I hand-stitched some holsters for cap-and-ball revolvers and sewed them up by hand with waxed linen. Wish I had one, but I don't -- I sold them with the revolvers when I went to college and needed money. But I'd bet dollars to donuts they're as functional today as they were 30 years ago. Heck, I found a couple of rolls of the waxed linen thread and IT's stil as good as the day I bought it. The problem with the lock-stitch is that if you break a stitch, everything can come apart (which is what happened with my old Lawrence rig -- the individual stitches had no strength on their own).

Now, I like the stuff I'm making today. It's practical, has a great "feel," and conceals well. It's not practical to hand-stitch it. But will it be good 40 years from now? I'm somewhat doubtful. These are designs that push the characteristics of the leather to the max. When the leather starts to degrade, the holster will become markedly less effective -- which is what Mike described with the semi-shoulder holsters.

tk

Edited January 18, 2012 by malabar