Juki 441 Clone Versus Adler 205-370

[Cobra Steve]

I agree with Bob. We have not had to replace 1 part due to a manufacturing defect. We also have a lifetime warranty on them as well. Thanks, Steve

[Ken Nelson]

I agree with Bob. We have not had to replace 1 part due to a manufacturing defect. We also have a lifetime warranty on them as well. Thanks, Steve

Some of the top saddlemakers in the industry use machines from the dealers at the top of the page. They don't have to use them or endorse them, they like them or they would not use them.. My self, I have had a Tippman Boss, Champion narrow throat, luberto's classic, Landis 3, Artisan toro 3000 and a Cobra Class 4. I have also used an Adler 205-370 where I once worked. I currently own a Cobra Class 4 and a luberto's Classic. The only heavy machine in use in the shop right now is the Class 4 and have yet to let anyone sew on it that DID NOT LIKE IT!! In fact several people have bought Class 4's after sewing on mine. Pretty hard to beat and at a great price. Call the Adler dealers I know and I DOUBT, you will get the kind of personal service Steve and Bob will give you. My 2 cents worth. Ken

[Steven Kelley]

Like I said in my original post. I have both a 205-370 and a Cowboy 4500. I've used both side by side, and do so every day. I actually use the Cowboy more, because I like sewing on it more, so it is setup for my higher volume items. The Adler is nice. It is finished better. The machining and polishing I would say are better in some areas. But as far as functionality goes, I prefer the Cowboy, so I use it more. I'm sure a Cobra Class 4 would be the same, since it's basically the same as a Cowboy. The Adler has some very nice features, but when I weigh them against the Cowboy, I prefer the Cowboy. They are both built like a tank and I can't imagine any part on either one being worn out in my lifetime. The lifetime warranty is worth a lot. You won't get that with the Adler. I'm not going to complain if my machine breaks down after 20 years and needs to be replaced. It paid for itself the first month I had it, so if it lasts 20 years I'm going to be very happy, and will gladly buy another or three if needed. Unless you find an Adler at a very good price, like I did, I would not recommend it over a Cowboy or Cobra.

[wnkleather]

Like I said in my original post. I have both a 205-370 and a Cowboy 4500. I've used both side by side, and do so every day. I actually use the Cowboy more, because I like sewing on it more, so it is setup for my higher volume items. The Adler is nice. It is finished better. The machining and polishing I would say are better in some areas. But as far as functionality goes, I prefer the Cowboy, so I use it more. I'm sure a Cobra Class 4 would be the same, since it's basically the same as a Cowboy. The Adler has some very nice features, but when I weigh them against the Cowboy, I prefer the Cowboy. They are both built like a tank and I can't imagine any part on either one being worn out in my lifetime. The lifetime warranty is worth a lot. You won't get that with the Adler. I'm not going to complain if my machine breaks down after 20 years and needs to be replaced. It paid for itself the first month I had it, so if it lasts 20 years I'm going to be very happy, and will gladly buy another or three if needed. Unless you find an Adler at a very good price, like I did, I would not recommend it over a Cowboy or Cobra.

Say I'm convinced. How do I decide which clone? Must be cylinder arm. Rarely sew over 20oz total, 277 or 346 thread.

Like I said in my original post. I have both a 205-370 and a Cowboy 4500. I've used both side by side, and do so every day. I actually use the Cowboy more, because I like sewing on it more, so it is setup for my higher volume items. The Adler is nice. It is finished better. The machining and polishing I would say are better in some areas. But as far as functionality goes, I prefer the Cowboy, so I use it more. I'm sure a Cobra Class 4 would be the same, since it's basically the same as a Cowboy. The Adler has some very nice features, but when I weigh them against the Cowboy, I prefer the Cowboy. They are both built like a tank and I can't imagine any part on either one being worn out in my lifetime. The lifetime warranty is worth a lot. You won't get that with the Adler. I'm not going to complain if my machine breaks down after 20 years and needs to be replaced. It paid for itself the first month I had it, so if it lasts 20 years I'm going to be very happy, and will gladly buy another or three if needed. Unless you find an Adler at a very good price, like I did, I would not recommend it over a Cowboy or Cobra.

Say I'm convinced. How do I decide which clone? Must be cylinder arm. Rarely sew over 20oz total, 277 or 346 thread.

[Steven Kelley]

Say I'm convinced. How do I decide which clone? Must be cylinder arm. Rarely sew over 20oz total, 277 or 346 thread.

I would call and talk to Bob and Steve. If you need one now, find out which one has a machine in stock. I purchased from Bob and his customer service is fantastic. My machine came ready to sew with 277 thread. It took about an hour to get it unpacked and mount the head to the stand. It sewed like a dream from the first stitch. I can vouch for Bob's CS, and there are others who do the same for Steve. I don't think you can go wrong with either one. Steve is in California and Bob is in Ohio. That might make a difference on shipping cost.

I'm glad I bought the Adler, first because I got a really good deal on it, but mostly because it confirms in my mind how good the clones really are. I don't have to wonder if a machine that costs twice as much is really that much better. It's not. Oh, and if you like the Adler style of machine, Cowboy makes a clone of it too. You can talk to Bob about that. Honestly, having used both, I prefer the 441 overall.

[jsmith]

I've had my Class4 about 2 months I can't say enough good things about the machine and service from Steve,Dave and Cobra staff.I've used several needle and awl machines as well as 205s the Class4 does it all at quite a bit of savings. Some like Adler some like Juki, Some like Ford some like Dodge. Talk to all the folks you can, form your own informed desision from there.

[wnkleather]

Say I'm convinced. How do I decide which clone? Must be cylinder arm. Rarely sew over 20oz total, 277 or 346 thread.

Say I'm convinced. How do I decide which clone? Must be cylinder arm. Rarely sew over 20oz total, 277 or 346 thread.

Since I have the 205 (and got it cheap), I'll probably want a machine for lighter work, say 138 or less, , still in cylinder arm, that way I have no real adjustments....do the machines built to sew 7/8" with 346 sew 8oz total chrome tan well?

I could even sell the 205 and look for a used, well maintained needle and awl, say a Union Special, if it were slow enough, and still get a lighter cylinder arm. Any suggestions?

[Wizcrafts]

Since I have the 205 (and got it cheap), I'll probably want a machine for lighter work, say 138 or less, , still in cylinder arm, that way I have no real adjustments....do the machines built to sew 7/8" with 346 sew 8oz total chrome tan well?

I could even sell the 205 and look for a used, well maintained needle and awl, say a Union Special, if it were slow enough, and still get a lighter cylinder arm. Any suggestions?

Here is a medium duty cylinder arm walking foot machine that sews up to 3/8 inch, with #138 thread.

I have been able to sew with 1/8 inch with both a Cobra Class 4 and a Cowboy CB4500. I changed to a #19 needle and used #92 thread.

While these machines sewed 8 ounces, they didn't do so without feeder issues. You see, the feed dog slots are very long and wide, to accommodate the equally huge feed dog. Soft, narrow leather straps may get pushed down into the slot in the throat plate, in front of the feed dog and sometimes, into the hole in the feed dog. The medium duty machine above has a much narrower feeder and plate cutout. It also has much shorter needles that don't flex as much as the long type 7x3 needles used in the 441 clones.

That said, I have learned that it really depends on what you are sewing on the 441, with small thread and needles, that can affect the outcome. I have no trouble hemming the cuffs on jeans, or leather coat sleeves, using #92 thread and a #19 needle on a big 441. But, trying to use it to sew the tip of a chap leather belt is a struggle.

You mentioned that you might look for a needle and awl machine. There is no Union Special needle and awl machine; they make garment sewing machines. There is a Union" Lockstitch" needle and awl machine. I happen to have my Union Lockstitch machine for sale.

[wnkleather]

Here is a medium duty cylinder arm walking foot machine that sews up to 3/8 inch, with #138 thread.

I have been able to sew with 1/8 inch with both a Cobra Class 4 and a Cowboy CB4500. I changed to a #19 needle and used #92 thread.

While these machines sewed 8 ounces, they didn't do so without feeder issues. You see, the feed dog slots are very long and wide, to accommodate the equally huge feed dog. Soft, narrow leather straps may get pushed down into the slot in the throat plate, in front of the feed dog and sometimes, into the hole in the feed dog. The medium duty machine above has a much narrower feeder and plate cutout. It also has much shorter needles that don't flex as much as the long type 7x3 needles used in the 441 clones.

That said, I have learned that it really depends on what you are sewing on the 441, with small thread and needles, that can affect the outcome. I have no trouble hemming the cuffs on jeans, or leather coat sleeves, using #92 thread and a #19 needle on a big 441. But, trying to use it to sew the tip of a chap leather belt is a struggle.

You mentioned that you might look for a needle and awl machine. There is no Union Special needle and awl machine; they make garment sewing machines. There is a Union" Lockstitch" needle and awl machine. I happen to have my Union Lockstitch machine for sale.

BRAIN @#$%. How is the learning curve?

[Wizcrafts]

BRAIN @#$%. How is the learning curve?

On which machine?

I read all the time about first time sewers buying a 441 clone and they learn to sew on the first day after setting it up. Others take longer to overcome newbie issues.

The medium duty 227 type machines are equally easy to learn to operate and are more flexible due to the large number of different presser feet and attachments available for them, which are not made for the 441s..

With any of these machines the most important lesson is to firmly hold back both threads before you begin to stitch. Don't let go until you either cross back over the first stitch, or have moved on about 3 stitches. The second most important lesson is to learn where every oil hole is and keep oil in them at all times. The third most important lesson is to not sew your fingers!

If you were asking about my Union Lockstitch Machine, I will gladly teach you how to operate and adjust it when you come to pick it up. A video camera that records audio would be a big help to you.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Wizcrafts