Groon Smell

[DoubleBarP]

Some time back I got the formula to make some Groon... Just strained the batch (gallon) and put it in a jug... Colored my first couple of holsters (look really black in the sun light). However my problem is the smell. My whole basement workshop smells of vinegar... It's the holsters.... How do I get that smell out of the holster? Can someone help PLEASE...

[TexasJack]

There are worse smells!

Vinegar is an acid (acetic acid), so it can react with alkaline chemicals. Baking soda would be an obvious and easy choice.

[Sylvia]

it does dissipate after a while. When you seal the leather it will help stop the smell too.

[ChuckBurrows]

once again - if you get too heavy a vinegar smell than you have not added enough iron to "kill" the acid and have not let I work long enough - to get GOOD no smell vinegar black you need to heat the mix and let it set for two weeks, than heat again and let set another week or two. Yes it can be used earlier but will you will have trouble with the smell. Also after applying put in front of a fan or outdoors.

an original recipe from the 1870's:

VINEGAR BLACK FOR LEATHER

For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner (note: some folks get the turnings from brake drums) and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.

How I do it most times:

I use de-oiled 4/0 steel wool: dip in acetone, squeeze out the extra and hang to dry - then tear or cut into small pieces. Add one pads worth of the de-oiled steel wool to one quart of heated white or cider vinegar (I prefer cider and Heinz is best). I use those plastic coffee "cans" and punch a single small hole in the lid to let of any gas buildup. Let it set in the hot sun which will speed the reaction. I let it set for at least two weeks until there is only a light vinegar odor left and/or the bulk of the steel wool (or other source of iron) has been dissolved. I then heat again and add more iron if need be (you know it's got enough iron when rather than dissolving it just sits there and rusts) and if more iron is needed or still smells strongly than leave for another two weeks or so. Once it is done "cooking" I pull the lid and let "air" for a few days - acetic acid is highly volatile and thus any if any acid (that's where the odor comes from) is left it will dissipate in a few days. I also keep a new batch "cooking" all the time so I have a constant supply.

For the deepest black, apply a bath of strong black tea first (this increase the tannins) and let it soak in good, then apply a generous amount of the vinegar black. Let set for about a half hour and then rinse with a mix of baking soda and warm water, about a 1/8 cup soda to a half gallon of water, apply let set for a few minutes and then rinse off really well. While the leather is still damp apply a light coat or two of your favorite saddle oil. Once dry top coat as normal

Experiment - I test a piece of each new side without oiling to see how well it takes the blacking, if need be I'll do a second black tea mix to darken, then apply the oil which also helps darken.

I've been doing it this way for 45+ years and only get residual odor if I rush the mix or don't follow all the steps........

for those who don't want to wait - get Ferric nitrate crystals from The Science Company and mix 5 parts distilled water to 1 part crystals - et voila instant leather black......

[DoubleBarP]

My thanks to all for the replys. I let it cook out in the shed for a little over two weeks before I tryed it. The 4 steel wool pads completely disolved leaving only a few "bits" of residue which came out when I strained it. the color is sort of like coffee or dark tea...I wore gloves when dipping the projects. Dont want my hands turning color...

I did not heat it up but will try that right away to see if that helps any, then let it "breath"... I am gonna try the baking soda bath and see if that helps with the current projects. Too bad I didn't know about the bath befire I sealed the pocket holster.... ... The items are already molded and sealed. It was during the drying process that I discovered the smell.. Guess I'm gonna see what works. Again Thanks for the help.

DBP

[Sylvia]

Chuck

I have a question: I assume from your posts that you are a holster maker. I don't as a rule make wet-formed items and I tend to tool first then 'groon afterwards. Have you tried tooling previously 'grooned leather, perhaps after the baking soda bath and rinse? I am wondering if that would be a better way for me to deal with the things that need to be vinegarooned.

???

Syl

[busted]

Buy yourself some cardamon and throw some of the seeds in you mix. The smell in your concoction should disappear. It is like 13.00 per ounce. Go to your friendly grocery store and look in the spice section it is a pale tan color the seeds around the size of a bee bee maybe a little smaller.

Some time back I got the formula to make some Groon... Just strained the batch (gallon) and put it in a jug... Colored my first couple of holsters (look really black in the sun light). However my problem is the smell. My whole basement workshop smells of vinegar... It's the holsters.... How do I get that smell out of the holster? Can someone help PLEASE...

[Sylvia]

I wore gloves when dipping the projects. Dont want my hands turning color...

DBP

Unless you are made of wood or veg tanned leather... You wouldn't change color. Vinegaroon turns things black by a chemical reaction between the 'groon and the tannins in the leather or wood... or tea as Chuck mentioned.

[ChuckBurrows]

Chuck

I have a question: I assume from your posts that you are a holster maker. I don't as a rule make wet-formed items and I tend to tool first then 'groon afterwards. Have you tried tooling previously 'grooned leather, perhaps after the baking soda bath and rinse? I am wondering if that would be a better way for me to deal with the things that need to be vinegarooned.

???

Syl

Actually I've made everything from coin purses and watch straps to harness and saddles, but my passion is and always will be historical replicas or historically inspired goods. The only work I do these days is 19th Century goods, mostly gun leather and sheaths but with more and more an emphasis on Indian beaded goods.

Anyway no I have never worked the leather after blackening it - in fact I HATE working even regular pre dyed leather (although there are times I must ARRRGH!), for me the leather just does not work the same as "raw" leather does. Best advice try it out.......

[TexasJack]

Chuck

I have a question: I assume from your posts that you are a holster maker.

Really?!

I blame this squarely on you, Chuck; you haven't been posting nearly enough pics on here.

BTW, Sylvia, I'm glad to hear Chuck does make holsters, otherwise my purchase of his "Frontier Holsters with Chuck Burrows" DVD would have been a waste of my money.

[WinterBear]

Unless you are made of wood or veg tanned leather... You wouldn't change color. Vinegaroon turns things black by a chemical reaction between the 'groon and the tannins in the leather or wood... or tea as Chuck mentioned.

Well I must be doing something wrong then, it certainly turned me funny colors where I got it on my bare skin.

[Sylvia]

Well I must be doing something wrong then, it certainly turned me funny colors where I got it on my bare skin.

Dang... you must be drinking way too much coffee or tea then. (bah duh dump!)

I've not noticed any skin tinting with mine. Go figure.

[Sylvia]

Really?!

I blame this squarely on you, Chuck; you haven't been posting nearly enough pics on here.

BTW, Sylvia, I'm glad to hear Chuck does make holsters, otherwise my purchase of his "Frontier Holsters with Chuck Burrows" DVD would have been a waste of my money.

Whoa! Burned by a Texan. Well, at least my instincts aren't failing me.

I pay no attention to "famous people" I figure they all put their britches on about the same as I do... and they all "sit to sh**" When I can find one that poll vaults into his britches from 100 paces away.... then I'll be impressed. :D Otherwise, they are just folks to me.

[chiefjason]

Chuck

I have a question: I assume from your posts that you are a holster maker. I don't as a rule make wet-formed items and I tend to tool first then 'groon afterwards. Have you tried tooling previously 'grooned leather, perhaps after the baking soda bath and rinse? I am wondering if that would be a better way for me to deal with the things that need to be vinegarooned.

???

Syl

Take this with a large grain of salt since I have not been working with leather long at all. I have done a total of 4 all leather holsters. But 30 seconds into trying to mold one that had been grooned a few days before I knew I was in trouble. It came out poorly molded. I was told that it's possible to groon, burnish, and mold all while it's still wet. I can say that it does make the burnishing easier. I have not tried molding that way yet. My last holster I molded first then grooned. It was much better than the one I grooned first. And it did not seem to effect the molding when it got wet. I think the main problem with grooning, drying, then working the leather is that the groon seems to nearly waterproof the leather on the working side. The water beads off instead of soaking in.

[Sylvia]

Excellent observation, Jason. Thank you.

[TexasJack]

Whoa! Burned by a Texan. Well, at least my instincts aren't failing me.

I pay no attention to "famous people" I figure they all put their britches on about the same as I do... and they all "sit to sh**" When I can find one that poll vaults into his britches from 100 paces away.... then I'll be impressed. :D Otherwise, they are just folks to me.

If anyone has patience and a good sense of humor, it's Chuck. I'm sure he got a laugh out of that. Anyone who could take the time to give me help and not give me up as hopeless has to have a good sense of humor.

[chiefjason]

Since we are talking groon here and it's getting some traffic, I'm going to sidetrack things a bit. Does anyone else notice a difference in how the groon takes in straight leather vs deglazed? Mine seems to work much, and I mean MUCH better if I don't deglaze. Any other experience?

Now, just to get back on track a bit. My first batch I rushed, and it smelled a lot. My second batch I started brewing as soon as I started using the first. It set much longer. Less smell. I tossed the first batch when the second was ready. Some smell, just not as strong. And the more I use it and leave the lid off while I work, the less residual smell I notice. Either I am getting used to it, or it's gassing off. I have another batch going now too. Since it is hot I set it outside to get more sun. We'll see how this goes. It will likely set longer than either of the first.

BTW, I did a piece the other day. Just one piece of leather and I wanted to leave the back as natural as possible. I grooned the front and edges and everything looked good. As soon as I did the baking soda and rinse it seemed to wick the groon through to the back in spots. No big deal really as I expected some bleeding. Just interesting to see it wick completely through 8-9 ox tooling leather in places.

[TomG]

I made up a couple of batches back in the fall. I didn't like the smell either. I was told that if you have dissolved as much metal as the vinegar will eat, there should not be any vinegar smell left.

The last batch didn't have as much of the vinegar smell as the first, but it does have that musty, rusted metal odor, with a slight vinegar undercurrent.

A couple of issues I had during the learning process. Now this may have just been me.

Too much soda in the wash will take all the oils out of the leather, leaving it brittle and stiff.

If you rinse it under plain running water and rub it, you can feel the oils in the leather coming to the surface.. You can actually wash them all out if you're not careful. So, rinse lightly.

The smell can take a week+ to go away.

Best results I had:

Dip the item for a minute or so, then take it out. Don't over do it. Often, it come out grey but within minutes in the air, turns jet black. Different leathers came out jet black right away.

Rinse lightly and wipe down lightly.

Immediately put a LIGHT coat of pure Neatsfoot oil on the flesh side.

Let it dry thoroughly.

Sometime, I will put another LIGHT coat of NFO on the flesh side once dry and let it set overnight. Too much oil and any SuperSheen or Resolene flakes off in a short time.

All of this being said, I love the depth and intensity of the black that I get.. But.... I usually don't have the time to wait for the smell to go away. If I do, then I use it.

I used to use the USMC Black spirit dye for everything. Got tired of burnishing the excess dyestuffs off. Now, for the fast turnaround jobs, I use the oil-based black. It's as close to the Vinegaroon as I've found.

Tom