Besides Price...what's The Difference Between These Machines?

[ChimeraKennels]

If all three have a 3/4 hp servo motor, what is the difference between a consew 206rb-5, chandler 406rb, and a Juki 1541S? If I go with either of these, they would have a gear reduction/speed reducer for controlled work. If I don't go with either of these, I am leaning towards a Cowboy 3500...but that is a different beast of course...so for this topic let's please just compare the Consew, Chandler, and Juki machines mentioned above.

Edited May 29, 2012 by ChimeraKennels

[Wizcrafts]

Consew now owns Chandler and sells equivalent models under the Chandler brand for a couple hundred dollars less than the Consew branded machines. They are about the same quality. A dealer can tell you the actual difference between them.

The Juki 1541S is a slightly higher quality machine, tolerance-wise and is used in factories around the World. But, all three of these machines have exactly the same sewing capabilities. These are 3/8 inch thickness sewn, with no more than #207 thread on top and preferably, #138 in the bobbin. They use the same standard walking foot needle system: 135x16/17. The largest needle available in that system is #25.

All three are upholstery grade machines. They can sew 3/8 inch, but not all day, every day. They will be maxed out and put to their limits working at that thickness. If you intend to sew 1/4 inch on a steady basis, they will do a good job. They aren't really built to take the constant pounding of sewing hard leather, especially with #24 or #25 needles.

If you plan on sewing at or above 3/8 inch on a steady basis, these machines will let you down.

There is one Juki you didn't mention, which exceeds all of these machines in capacity. That is the LU-1508NH. The feet lift up to 5/8 inch. It uses a longer needle (system 190) and can sew up to 7/16 inch, with #207 thread. The 1508NH sells in the mid 2k range. After that, you need to move up to a 441 clone, like the CB3500 you mentioned.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Very good write up, just to be clear, as stated, the Consew and Chandler machines do come from under the same roof, but both are different machines from different factories.

[ChimeraKennels]

I saw the new consew and Chandler's have a foot lift of 9/16" (or more specifically 14 mm) and the Juki is now 5/8" (or more specifically 16 mm) so that is why I asked. I didn't know if they could penetrate up to an 1/8" or so less than their lift.

For what its worth, my "all day long every day" use would be less than a few hours a week. I don't know if that changes anything or not.

Edited May 29, 2012 by ChimeraKennels

[Techsew Ron]

I saw the new consew and Chandler's have a foot lift of 9/16" (or more specifically 14 mm) and the Juki is now 5/8" (or more specifically 16 mm) so that is why I asked. I didn't know if they could penetrate up to an 1/8" or so less than their lift.

For what its worth, my "all day long every day" use would be less than a few hours a week. I don't know if that changes anything or not.

You've mentioned 2 entirely different classes of machines (upholstery grade vs. 441 clone)...what exactly are you going to be sewing?

[Wizcrafts]

You've mentioned 2 entirely different classes of machines (upholstery grade vs. 441 clone)...what exactly are you going to be sewing?

Ronnie;

He told me is is making both nylon and leather dog collars and leashes. Some will max out at 3/8" while others may approach 1/2" at the folds. It seems certain he will need to sew up to 7/16 inch.

[Wizcrafts]

I saw the new consew and Chandler's have a foot lift of 9/16" (or more specifically 14 mm) and the Juki is now 5/8" (or more specifically 16 mm) so that is why I asked. I didn't know if they could penetrate up to an 1/8" or so less than their lift.

For what its worth, my "all day long every day" use would be less than a few hours a week. I don't know if that changes anything or not.

Sometimes the math works and other times it fails. There is more than one factor that limits the thickness you can sew.

1. The length of the needle, from the bottom of the needle bar to the eye of the needle.
2. The clearance between the outer presser foot when it's raised all the way up, and the needle bar when it's all the way down.
3. The height of the cut out in the back of the head, in which the alternating foot levers raise and lower.
4. The strength of the presser foot spring, or springs
5. The mechanical position where the upper tension gets automatically released by the foot lift mechanism
6. Excess slack in the shuttle drive system could retard the timing making it harder to sew thick material.

The standard walking foot needle system is not long enough to let the feet lift high enough to sew over 3/8 inch, without the needle bar hitting the raised outer foot. But, a manufacturer might decide to make certain models have higher non-sewing foot lift to insert the work into the needle area, clearing hardware and thick seams. That would be about 1/2 inch maximum clearance on a standard walking foot machine.

The Juki 1508NH has been modified to allow the feet to lift even higher, to clear obstacles like the sides of shoes. Once the work is clamped down under the foot, it will only sew up to 7/16 inch. The needle system doesn't quite allow it to sew 1/2 inch. The 1508NH lists for about $2500, the same price as most 441 clone machines that can sew over 3/4 inch.

You really should be limiting your search to a machine that can exceed your requirements, rather than just barely meet them.

Another factor you may not know about yet is speed reducers. All of the 441 and 205 type machines have a 3:1 speed reducer pulley between the motor and machine. Furthermore, the flywheels on the big machines typically have 8 inch pulleys, or more. This slows down the top speed, multiplying the torque and gaining the necessary punching power to sew thick or hard leather, with large needles and thread. The upholstery grade machines don't usually have this reducer and might not be able to power the machine through the hard materials.

[ChimeraKennels]

BOTH nylon collars and nylon leashes for retailing on my dog website (Chimera Kennels)...and perhaps a rare attempt at a belt, wallet, holster, or archery related equipment for personal use.

It is the collars and leashes that I am DEFINITELY going to be sewing...and definitely with nylon webbing...explaining my interest in the upholstery type machines. I will sew 2, 3, and 4 layers of this material. 2 layers is about 3/16", three layers is about 9/32," and 4 layers is about 3/8." The upholstery machines can handle all this stuff just fine I know because the lady that used to make my collars used such a machine. Unfortunately, she has since retired.

But which one is the most capable? If I do leather, it would be very limited. The leashes would the thickest harness weight leather (or whatever horse reins are made from) I could fold over without it cracking (probably about 1/4") material folded over to about 1/2" but the end would be tapered thinner so it would only be 1/2" thick for a few stitches. It would quickly taper thinner on the end side and would be down to 3/8" for about 3" and then taper out smooth like a ramp ending as I cut to the finished side. In other words, if the machine could do 1/2" stitch, it would be for a minimal time. Most stitching on the leash would be at 3/8" or so.

The leather leash is more important to me than is a leather collar. The leash is the "shock absorber" to a dog's lunge, not the collar, when doing protection work. Leather collars are too wide and thick (to displace impact) for them to offer any give.

If I could do the above with an upholstery machine, I might would forget about making leather collars, as it would likely be the leather collar that would require put me into a harness machine. My collars are 4 layers thick (each layer being about 1/8") for approximately 6" of the buckle and D ring area, then taper to 3 layers for the remaining length of the collar (average about another 16 in length). They are large, as they have to fit large powerful protection dogs. Maybe a gear reduced upholstery machine could do it or maybe it couldn't...but either way...even if I made them I would likely only make a few dozen such collars a year.

Some times I wonder if the Cowboy would be the perfect machine for me and wonder if it could do EVERYTHING I need, but then I hear such a machine (441 clone) may have difficulty getting a good stitch on the light weight nylon webbing...which is my PRIMARY reason for getting a sewing machine in the first place. I definitely do not want to spend more money for the cowboy (even though I would love that machine for leather work) if it can't get a good clean stitch on the thinner nylon webbing. And, even if it could do the nylon, if the lesser expensive Juki can meet my needs given my occasional interest in leather, than I wonder if that is not the way to go.

ANYWAY, I fear I have probably tested the patience of the members on this website...and I GREATLY appreciate the feedback. There is a wealth of knowledge here.

I found a Pfaff 545 machine that I thought was going to be perfect for me, looked great to ME, and within my budget, but the salesman was open with me about it being a reconditioned machine from a prison and therefore suggested it to have had a hard life (I was fooled by a new paint job and good pictures). I appreciated his honesty, as I don't want to get a problem with expensive parts either.

[ChimeraKennels]

Sometimes the math works and other times it fails. There is more than one factor that limits the thickness you can sew.

1. The length of the needle, from the bottom of the needle bar to the eye of the needle.
2. The clearance between the outer presser foot when it's raised all the way up, and the needle bar when it's all the way down.
3. The height of the cut out in the back of the head, in which the alternating foot levers raise and lower.
4. The strength of the presser foot spring, or springs
5. The mechanical position where the upper tension gets automatically released by the foot lift mechanism
6. Excess slack in the shuttle drive system could retard the timing making it harder to sew thick material.

The standard walking foot needle system is not long enough to let the feet lift high enough to sew over 3/8 inch, without the needle bar hitting the raised outer foot. But, a manufacturer might decide to make certain models have higher non-sewing foot lift to insert the work into the needle area, clearing hardware and thick seams. That would be about 1/2 inch maximum clearance on a standard walking foot machine.

The Juki 1508NH has been modified to allow the feet to lift even higher, to clear obstacles like the sides of shoes. Once the work is clamped down under the foot, it will only sew up to 7/16 inch. The needle system doesn't quite allow it to sew 1/2 inch. The 1508NH lists for about $2500, the same price as most 441 clone machines that can sew over 3/4 inch.

You really should be limiting your search to a machine that can exceed your requirements, rather than just barely meet them.

Another factor you may not know about yet is speed reducers. All of the 441 and 205 type machines have a 3:1 speed reducer pulley between the motor and machine. Furthermore, the flywheels on the big machines typically have 8 inch pulleys, or more. This slows down the top speed, multiplying the torque and gaining the necessary punching power to sew thick or hard leather, with large needles and thread. The upholstery grade machines don't usually have this reducer and might not be able to power the machine through the hard materials.

Apparently we were posting at the same time.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I wasn't aware that lift height doesn't necessarily translate to needle cycle. That makes sense now that you explained it.

So, back to the 441 clones I guess. Can it do thin nylon webbing reliably? If so, cool. If not...then upholstery machine will be my choice and leather collars will be forgotten about. I need the nylon applications more-so than the leather.

[Wizcrafts]

Okay, how thin do you need to sew? I have some webbing on hand. What number/size of thread are you going to use? I'll sew a layer or two on my Cowboy stitcher and get back with you.

The part of your description that deals with the leather leashes reaching 1/2 inch is really the crossover point. You will damage the upholstery machine trying to climb that thick. I wish I could tell you otherwise, but I'd be lying.

[ChimeraKennels]

Okay, how thin do you need to sew? I have some webbing on hand. What number/size of thread are you going to use? I'll sew a layer or two on my Cowboy stitcher and get back with you.

The part of your description that deals with the leather leashes reaching 1/2 inch is really the crossover point. You will damage the upholstery machine trying to climb that thick. I wish I could tell you otherwise, but I'd be lying.

Thanks. Two layers of nylon webbing for a total stack of about 3/16" with 138 thread would be as thin as I would go, but if you could drop off that to a single layer and go back up to both layers...that would be awasome. If that can be done reliably, then I am done looking.

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks. Two layers of nylon webbing for a total stack of about 3/16" with 138 thread would be as thin as I would go, but if you could drop off that to a single layer and go back up to both layers...that would be awasome. If that can be done reliably, then I am done looking.

I am working on a computer right now, but will dig up my webbing and sew it in a couple hours. I'll post a photo of the results.

[Wizcrafts]

I had time to sew the webbing, but not photograph it. I'll do that later today. It sewed one layer, two layers and 6 layers without hesitation. The knots are hard to hide in one layer, which is only about 1/16" thick. I would normally use #92 thread for that thinness.

[ChimeraKennels]

Thanks. My webbing is apparently thicker, as there is no way I could stack 16 layers of this webbing in one inch. The webbing I have is about 1/10th of an inch thick.

Thanks for your help. I was almost completely sold on the Cowboy 3500/4500 but then someone mentioned to me that it would have a hard time sewing something that thin. Now that you did this test, it looks like the cowboy is the one I will go with...which pleases me because Bob K has such an excellent reputation on MANY websites. He must really do a great job.

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks. My webbing is apparently thicker, as there is no way I could stack 16 layers of this webbing in one inch. The webbing I have is about 1/10th of an inch thick.

Thanks for your help. I was almost completely sold on the Cowboy 3500/4500 but then someone mentioned to me that it would have a hard time sewing something that thin. Now that you did this test, it looks like the cowboy is the one I will go with...which pleases me because Bob K has such an excellent reputation on MANY websites. He must really do a great job.

Here, as promised, are some photos of my CB4500 sewing webbing. One layer is about 1/20 inch. The needle is a #23 leather point. The thread is Cowboy #138 pre-lubricated bonded nylon.

[ChimeraKennels]

Thanks Wiz.

You have me sold on the Cowboy, for if you can sew a single layer of webbing that is about half the thickness of my webbing, then I don't see why I should have any problems with Cowboy...especially since I will pretty much always be using 2-4 layers of the stuff anyway.

Even though this means spending more money than I initially wanted to, it is good news as far as I am concerned because this means one machine should really be able to accomplish all my needs and desires for a sewing machine.

Lee

[Wizcrafts]

People used to tell me that these machines can't sew thin material, but I ignored them and did it anyway. I even shorten hems on jeans on my Cowboy. I have a table top attachment that helps keep flat work flat, rather than letting it fold over the arm. It's a very versatile machine once you get to know it.

[mikesmith648]

I have been following this conversation and I know what I want for Xmas!!! That or maybe your Union Wiz!!!

Do you have a lawayay plan:innocent:

[Wizcrafts]

I have been following this conversation and I know what I want for Xmas!!! That or maybe your Union Wiz!!!

Do you have a lawayay plan:innocent:

Maybe we can work something out on the ULS.

Mind you, the Cowboy is easier to master.

[Jimbob]

BOTH nylon collars and nylon leashes for retailing on my dog website (Chimera Kennels)...and perhaps a rare attempt at a belt, wallet, holster, or archery related equipment for personal use.

It is the collars and leashes that I am DEFINITELY going to be sewing...and definitely with nylon webbing...explaining my interest in the upholstery type machines. I will sew 2, 3, and 4 layers of this material. 2 layers is about 3/16", three layers is about 9/32," and 4 layers is about 3/8." The upholstery machines can handle all this stuff just fine I know because the lady that used to make my collars used such a machine. Unfortunately, she has since retired.

But which one is the most capable? If I do leather, it would be very limited. The leashes would the thickest harness weight leather (or whatever horse reins are made from) I could fold over without it cracking (probably about 1/4") material folded over to about 1/2" but the end would be tapered thinner so it would only be 1/2" thick for a few stitches. It would quickly taper thinner on the end side and would be down to 3/8" for about 3" and then taper out smooth like a ramp ending as I cut to the finished side. In other words, if the machine could do 1/2" stitch, it would be for a minimal time. Most stitching on the leash would be at 3/8" or so.

The leather leash is more important to me than is a leather collar. The leash is the "shock absorber" to a dog's lunge, not the collar, when doing protection work. Leather collars are too wide and thick (to displace impact) for them to offer any give.

If I could do the above with an upholstery machine, I might would forget about making leather collars, as it would likely be the leather collar that would require put me into a harness machine. My collars are 4 layers thick (each layer being about 1/8") for approximately 6" of the buckle and D ring area, then taper to 3 layers for the remaining length of the collar (average about another 16 in length). They are large, as they have to fit large powerful protection dogs. Maybe a gear reduced upholstery machine could do it or maybe it couldn't...but either way...even if I made them I would likely only make a few dozen such collars a year.

Some times I wonder if the Cowboy would be the perfect machine for me and wonder if it could do EVERYTHING I need, but then I hear such a machine (441 clone) may have difficulty getting a good stitch on the light weight nylon webbing...which is my PRIMARY reason for getting a sewing machine in the first place. I definitely do not want to spend more money for the cowboy (even though I would love that machine for leather work) if it can't get a good clean stitch on the thinner nylon webbing. And, even if it could do the nylon, if the lesser expensive Juki can meet my needs given my occasional interest in leather, than I wonder if that is not the way to go.

ANYWAY, I fear I have probably tested the patience of the members on this website...and I GREATLY appreciate the feedback. There is a wealth of knowledge here.

I found a Pfaff 545 machine that I thought was going to be perfect for me, looked great to ME, and within my budget, but the salesman was open with me about it being a reconditioned machine from a prison and therefore suggested it to have had a hard life (I was fooled by a new paint job and good pictures). I appreciated his honesty, as I don't want to get a problem with expensive parts either.

Cain Corso????

Beautiful animal!!

Jim

[ChimeraKennels]

Good guess, but no. The Cane Corso is a registered pure breed dog that is reproduced on the merits of papers. As much as it SHOULD matter what the dog can do, the vast majority of the general public that owns and breeds does does not require anything more from their dogs before breeding them. This is why so many breeds of dogs today are very unhealthy and/or none functional. I have worked a bunch of Cane Corsos and unfortunately they can not live up to the performance the breed is known for. They are kind of like calling a Singer 15-91 an "industrial sewing machine."

The breed we deal with is a recreation of the OLD STYLE working Bandog (or Bullmastiff)...where performance and health are more important than appearance. Now, don't get me wrong, I like a good looking dog too, but I have to have function first. This is the way I view almost anything I spend time on. There are many working/protection breeds in existence today, but most are not good family dogs because tey are either 1. too hyper all the time, or 2. have rank/dominance issues making them less suitable around children. I wanted a family guardian.

My master's degree is in Animal Sciences, and I have spent the last 12+ years recreating these dogs. I used to refer to our dogs as Swinford Bandogs, but recently we changed the breed name to American Sentinel Canine.