Casing leather

[UKRay]

How do you guys actually case your leather?

Over the years I have read all kinds of stuff about soaking leather in cold water/warm water/baby shampoo/leather conditioner and a raft of other less savoury stuff and then putting it in the fridge overnight, leaving it outside in the porch (and even digging a hole and burying it) but it seemed like a whole lot of fiddling about for little return - I'm now doubting my decision to ignore this stuff. Can anyone shed any light on the best way to case leather or even why their way works for them?

Is it all nonsense and hype? Do you really do any of those things or do you just wet it with plain water and sponge? I have to know the honest truth!

Who is brave enough to reveal all?

Edited July 22, 2008 by UKRay

[IanCantwell]

I just fill a sink with luke warm water and drop it in there, swill it around untill the bubbles stop (usually under a minute) and it's ready for moulding. If it's just stamping it gets a quick wipe over with a wet sponge making sure it's evenly wet.

Don't know if this is correct but works for me.

[Rawhide]

I use Pro-carve Casing solution. I wipe with a loaded wet sponge evenly in one direction, then evenly 90 degrees to the previous direction. I do this until the leather quits absorbing very quickly. Once the leather begins to turn to it's natural color again, I place it under a sheet of glass (glass cutting board). I leave this overnight and it's cased. I can also maintain this cased state for several days by using a lightly wet sponge over the middle, and a heavily wet sponge to the edges, then back under glass. You can do this once a day and keep it cased. I have had a piece cased for over a week this way.

Marlon

[JRedding]

I don't case leather to tool it, I just spray it down with a spray bottle fairly damp to tap-off or trace off, usually another spritz before carving, by the time it's carved it's about how I like it for tooling, and I maintain the moisture with a spray now and then as it's needed. I know that's not how most do it but it works for me. I'm not going to tool into the bottom layers so what's the point of them being moist, I've always thought it only increased stretch if the bottom layers were moist and pliable as opposed to firm enough to help retain it's original shape. Just one opinion but most of the books that stress the need to case were written forty or fifty years ago when leather was much different than it is today, in Stolhmans day cattle weren't raised on steroids and went to slaughter at a much older age than they do today,and a greater percentage of slaughter cattle were farm raised as opposed to feed-lot raised anyway, all of these factors as it's done today have negative effects on the size and quality of the leather produced. Shep Hermann of Hermann Oak Leather makes no secret of the fact the EPA has forced them to "reinvent" the process of tanning leather several times over the last forty years in an effort to make it a cleaner process with less hazardous waste. If I remember correctly his words were "the process we use today isn't much like we used to do it" or something close to that. The leather of fifty years ago was harder than the hinges on hells door compared to leather of today and required casing to make it workable but that leather no longer exists as I see it.

[Rawhide]

I usually mount my leather to illustration board to prevent stretch. You don't necessarily have to do this for 8/9 oz leather, but a 2/12 oz will stretch, no matter how little or how much you wet it.

M.

[bustedlifter]

I've done both; soak completely or just lightly wet. Now I just get the top slightly wet to trace a pattern. I'll then rewet the top a bit and wet the bottom some with a rag or sponge, when it returns to the natural color I'll carve it. I 'll let it sit overnight before tooling it.

[Tpsorion]

I use either a spray bottle with water or a sponge. I spray it lightly then when the color is almost back to the original color I tool it.

[UKRay]

No word yet from anyone in Australia, South Africa and New Zealand about the way they do their casing...

[UKRay]

Lots of different approaches and no two people in full agreement so far. It is beginning to sound like casing 'alchemy' is not as widespread as I thought.

JRedding's thoughts on 'modern leather production' sound very reasonable to me and worth a lot more discussion.

Ian's instantaneous 'dunk and cut' approach is starting to sound like a common sense way to handle things - followed up with a spray of water to keep the leather moist. I accept that thinner leather can stretch but is there any real reason not to dunk thicker leather - say 8oz and above?

What about the 'soaking and leaving overnight' thing - is it really worth the effort and what do you achieve?

I'm fascinated by Rawhide's 'under glass' technique - how does that improve things for you Marlon?

[Rawhide]

Lots of different approaches and no two people in full agreement so far. It is beginning to sound like casing 'alchemy' is not as widespread as I thought.

JRedding's thoughts on 'modern leather production' sound very reasonable to me and worth a lot more discussion.

Ian's instantaneous 'dunk and cut' approach is starting to sound like a common sense way to handle things - followed up with a spray of water to keep the leather moist. I accept that thinner leather can stretch but is there any real reason not to dunk thicker leather - say 8oz and above?

What about the 'soaking and leaving overnight' thing - is it really worth the effort and what do you achieve?

I'm fascinated by Rawhide's 'under glass' technique - how does that improve things for you Marlon?

I got this method from Peter Main. What it does for me is prevent me from having to add water. Once it's cased, I can carve and stamp a small to medium project, without having to re-wet it. Once you begin to re-wet, Leather tends to get a little harder to cut, Because the water, pushes out the fats and oils used to tan the hide. Not nearly as much as say a spirit dye, but if you use enough water it will dry out the leather. The glass is just a method to keep in the moisture for a long period of time, so if I'm carving and I want to quit, I can cover it with glass. the only way for the water to escape is through the edges of the piece, hence why I wet the edges with a loaded sponge. This will last for about a day, add a little water once a day and the piece can stay cased for a long time. I have use the refrigerated method and it works as well...Only problem is my wife thinks leather is "in the way" most of the time.

Marlon

[UKRay]

I got this method from Peter Main. What it does for me is prevent me from having to add water. Once it's cased, I can carve and stamp a small to medium project, without having to re-wet it. Once you begin to re-wet, Leather tends to get a little harder to cut, Because the water, pushes out the fats and oils used to tan the hide. Not nearly as much as say a spirit dye, but if you use enough water it will dry out the leather. The glass is just a method to keep in the moisture for a long period of time, so if I'm carving and I want to quit, I can cover it with glass. the only way for the water to escape is through the edges of the piece, hence why I wet the edges with a loaded sponge. This will last for about a day, add a little water once a day and the piece can stay cased for a long time. I have use the refrigerated method and it works as well...Only problem is my wife thinks leather is "in the way" most of the time.

It is strange to think that adding water will dry out your leather and make it harder to work; but I can see where you are coming from with this, Marlon. The same goes for the 'overnight in the refrigerator' thing and your glass technique - they both stop the water evaporating and keep the leather workable. Is this type of 'deep' prolonged casing only for quite big projects - or projects that take several days to complete? Surely 'deep' casing doesn't make much difference on a smaller project or one that can be finished quickly - can we get away with a 'dunk and cut' approach or are there any more benefits to 'deep' casing?

One other thing Marlon, you mentioned using Pro-Carve. What does this do to make the job easier or better? I know you use it, but does it really work as well as the marketing blurb says it does?

[TroyWest]

I have to agree with Jim Redding here. A number of years ago, Jay Lynn Gore and I did an experiment of casing leather. Jay Lynn is a well known tooler, the owner and maker of Gore tools.

We cased a piece of Herman Oak leather to perfection, overnight, til it was exactly right for carving and then he tooled it. Then we took an identical piece and simply wet the surface and started tooling.When both pieces were tooled and completely dry, no one could tell which piece had been cased and which was not. The color was identical. Even we couldn't tell, except for the fact that we labeled the back.

There is certainly nothing wrong with casing if a person chooses to do so, but in my world I often have to go to work without it and I dont even think about it anymore. I do a lot of tooling. I often will dip a fender to start and start laying out a pattern. If I have to stop I just turn it over on my rock and lay a piece of plexiglass on it to slow the moisture from leaving, but if I go all weekend before I get back to it, It will be fine. I prefer not to but it's o.k.

I have used pro-carve, but I absolutely cannot tell that it makes any difference in the ease of cutting for me. If it works for you, great. Maybe it has to do with how hard or soft the water is.

Do an experiment. Take 2 pieces of leather as close to identical as possible. Wet 1 with Pro- carve and 1 with water. See if 1 actually cuts easier than the other. Either way you'll have your answer.

[JRedding]

I'm like Troy I've tried the Pro-Carve and couldn't tell a difference, maybe there's a reason it has no list of ingredients on the bottle because it sure smells and feels like plain old dish soap and water. I've used Shoe Stretch before only to find out I'd paid someone fifteen dollars a gallon to pre-mix alcohol and water for me and I've questioned whether the Pro-Carve solution is a pre-mixed potion of common household products. If someone knows what it's actually made of it would be interesting to find out, but the fact that it has no list of ingredients even for medical purposes is questionable.

[buffalo]

The old saddle maker that taught me leather work said, ''all amateurs always get the leather way to wet." I've also seen JRedding work first hand (take a look at his saddle) Both of them do some of the best work around. I tend to agree a spray bottle work's by far the best with the leathers we have today.

Regards Buff

[Art]

Hi Ray,

I am not much of a carver, borders and highlights but mostly stamping. I have used Pro-Carv and water and just applied it with a sponge and let it come back to color and have not had a problem. I have also used distilled water and a capfull of Dawn dishwashing detergent to a spray bottle and honestly couldn't tell the difference. Not that I am any kind of expert. Mind you only the green Dawn works, anything else and your results may vary. I did try leaving the solution overnight on Funk and Wagnel's porch, but someone appropriated it so I won't try that again. I do lightly oil the piece a couple of days before wetting it.

Art

How do you guys actually case your leather?

Over the years I have read all kinds of stuff about soaking leather in cold water/warm water/baby shampoo/leather conditioner and a raft of other less savoury stuff and then putting it in the fridge overnight, leaving it outside in the porch (and even digging a hole and burying it) but it seemed like a whole lot of fiddling about for little return - I'm now doubting my decision to ignore this stuff. Can anyone shed any light on the best way to case leather or even why their way works for them?

Is it all nonsense and hype? Do you really do any of those things or do you just wet it with plain water and sponge? I have to know the honest truth!

Who is brave enough to reveal all?

[gary]

Ray,

I find it depends on the reason for casing the leather in the first place.

If it's for tooling/stamping (and I've done so little of each I won't even venture my opinion here) or if it's for shaping round an object.

I make Police duty equipment and case leather for shaping round batons, torches and handcuffs.

I use bridle leather and sometimes bag (girth) hide. For both of them I find the 'bung it in a bowl of tepid water until the bubbles stop rising' technique works quite well. I can tell by feel when it's about right for the task ahead. If it's still a bit stiff I just bung it in a plastic bag for ten minutes and then see if it's okay, etc.

Gary

[bruce johnson]

Regarding ProCarve. I used to use it for the mold inhibition properties. In my old shop I had a heck of a mold problem. It was a very small shop, and I can trace it back to taking apart an oldy moldy saddle. Green dust poofed out of it. After that I had a problem and ProCarve stopped it. I had a guy from Louisiana tell me at a show that he had a customer tell him his finished headstalls didn't get moldy in the trailer and tack room like they used to. He traced it back to starting to case with ProCarve. Since I moved to my new place, I kind of got away from the ProCarve and haven't had a problem. Probably a resident spore deal.

I have a before and after work schedule. I generally case overnight. I cut, tape backs, wet, and bag overnight - which is about 5-7 hours in my case. I do my sewing and finishing work after that. I do my carving and stamping early mornings usually to fit my schedule - nobody else home and few people stop by between 3:30 and 6:45. I was using plain water and getting by OK. When I was using the lighter weights of HO (under about 7 oz) I found that a longer case made my basketstamping round up a little nicer. Not so much of a difference on the heavier weights. Those I could slather on water or PC water, let the color come back, and go to pounding. I tend to do a lot of stamping and like the leather to be more to the dry side for better burnishing and rounding of the unstamped areas. This baby shampoo/lexol mix seems to hold the moisture longer for me to stamp bigger areas without rewetting. If I need to, I mist more on with a spray bottle. To my eye, I get a little more tool burnishing with the mix too. I recently did a photo album, cased about 8 hours and was really looking good right up to the part where I mispelled the guy's name. I did a quick case on the second one, and it came out OK. Took a little more maul to get the same effect with the Assoc basket, but the floral corners are identical.

[Rawhide]

I like the procarve for two reasons. The most important being mold prevention. The second, the smell. It smells good. I don't know much difference between pc and plain water. I have tried the lexol baby shampoo formula and I like it. Just haven't used it much.

Marlon

[UKRay]

Thanks for all the comments guys - but we haven't got to the bottom of this thing yet!

Troy makes a good point when he says that in the 'real world' we often have to start a job without 'deep' casing the leather in the 'traditional' manner first. I don't think anyone could argue with that, Troy. Like Marlon, Troy uses a sheet of material to seal in moisture if he has to leave a job part way through. I think I'm convinced that this is a great idea and will be using it in the future - does anyone else do the same?

Same goes for the hand-held spray bottle full of water. Brilliant idea and would work for just about everyone. I just got one very cheap on eBay!

Pro-Carve - who knows? The jury is still out here as apart from its fairly well proven anti-fungicidal properties all it seems to do is smell nice - unless someone else knows different? I think JRedding may be on the money here when he suggests that a teaspoonful of an ordinary household anti-fungicide in your water spray might do the same job for less money? More evidence and anecdotes needed I feel...

Art, your green Dawn dishwashing detergent story is brilliant. The stuff urban legends are made of; but sadly all it does is muddy the Pro-Carve waters even further. Let's face it mate, in your own words you "honestly couldn't tell the difference". The interesting part was in the very last sentence: "I do lightly oil the piece a couple of days before wetting it" - so what oil do you use and how long do you leave it?

Gary makes a great point when he says that 'deep' casing isn't even essential for shaping and moulding. He adopts a rapid, warm water dunking technique similar to Ian's. Mind you, they both come from the semi-frozen North of England so I can understand why they use warm water...

Bruce takes us back to Pro-Carve's anti fungus properties - nobody is going to argue with you there Bruce, but how does baby shampoo and Lexol work? Do we have any chemists that can explain what is happening here? Is this a sort of leathery botox mixture that fills the dried up skin with moisture? Could we sell it to all those people who spend fortunes on cosmetic surgery? More importantly, I like the idea that it makes stamped impressions clearer - I think that is what you are implying but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I forgot to say Marlon, I'm with you on the fridge thing. I had to get my own beer/bait/leather fridge and keep it in the garage for fear of domestic violence...

[Schno]

Pro-Carve - who knows? The jury is still out here as apart from its fairly well proven anti-fungicidal properties all it seems to do is smell nice - unless someone else knows different? I think JRedding may be on the money here when he suggests that a teaspoonful of an ordinary household anti-fungicide in your water spray might do the same job for less money? More evidence and anecdotes needed I feel...

Well, one thing I can say about Pro-Carve is that it's slippery stuff! I made the mistake of spraying a piece with Pro-Carve over a marble floor. (My leather shop is in my dining room, unfortunately... no room in the garage). Anyway, I very nearly broke my neck walking across that bit of the floor in my socks. The fellow that runs the local Tandy shop also reported that his students' tools will slip out of place more with the Pro-Carve.

As for water casing, I'm in the 'spray-bottle on the go' camp.

[barra]

I like to use a pump up garden sprayer. I find I get a more even spray with just the fine mist the pump up sprayer produces. As for casing solution, it depends on what region I am living in at the time. If in the tropics I might use some sort of mould inhibitor. In summer which here in southern Australia is a dry heat, I either spray or plunge in water til the bubbles stop and bag it til needed. I then let it return to natural colour but still cool. Overall the whole technique depends on region and season of the year but I don't get too bent around the axles about it.

Being a backyard alchemist, I'm still playing with water and casing solutions. I live in Adelaide South Australia so water can be an issue. (The Aussies know what I mean).

Barra

[Art]

Hi Ray,

I lightly oil with #1 Saddle Oil (Bee Natural) two or three days before I wet the leather, I leave it set in the boiler room (85 degrees F, 30% humidity). The trick here is LIGHTLY oil, one coat only, light application, if it soaks up the oil rapidly, don't apply any more. If the leather looks to be in good shape, I skip the oil.

Art

Thanks for all the comments guys - but we haven't got to the bottom of this thing yet!

Art, your green Dawn dishwashing detergent story is brilliant. The stuff urban legends are made of; but sadly all it does is muddy the Pro-Carve waters even further. Let's face it mate, in your own words you "honestly couldn't tell the difference". The interesting part was in the very last sentence: "I do lightly oil the piece a couple of days before wetting it" - so what oil do you use and how long do you leave it?

[bruce johnson]

Bruce takes us back to Pro-Carve's anti fungus properties - nobody is going to argue with you there Bruce, but how does baby shampoo and Lexol work? Do we have any chemists that can explain what is happening here? Is this a sort of leathery botox mixture that fills the dried up skin with moisture? Could we sell it to all those people who spend fortunes on cosmetic surgery? More importantly, I like the idea that it makes stamped impressions clearer - I think that is what you are implying but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ray,

A few things at work here. First off the real baby shampoo/lexol formula is supposed to have Listerine added as an antifungal. I haven't done that, but the first mold I see, will be there. The baby shampoo is adding surfactant and at a neutral pH. The lexol is probably replacing tanning oils that theoretically are being displaced by the casing water. It has been told here and other forums that Lexol is a tradename for one of the tanning oils/fat liquors used in the tanning process. The guys who talk about leather getting progressively harder if it dries out and you try to retool it - I haven't seen that to any degree with this mix.

I wouldn't say that this makes stamp impressions clearer. I think it makes them "darker" and more contrasting, something I strive for with stamped patterns. More to do with moisture control in the leather than anything. I just feel like this mix gives me that golden moisture time longer. I have also top dressed cased leather with saddle soap and it holds moisture longer also. It also can make letter dyeing look pretty funky too. Using some of the antiques and highlighters can give the same burnished contrast as well.

[UKRay]

Barra, thanks for the garden sprayer hint and the down to earth approach to the subject. I'd really like to know what sort of alchemy you are exploring? Have you found anything yet that actually adds to either the tooling/carving/forming 'experience' or the finished product?

Art, what do you think the oiling and setting process actually achieves? Does it 'condition' the leather in some way?

Bruce J, I wondered when we would get around to listerine. Are you talking about good old minty Listerine mouthwash here?

I can see how the baby shampoo would act as a surfactant - but almost any liquid soap would do the same thing - come to that, so would most fabric softeners and they smell nice too (did you get that, Marlon? <grin!>). I may be wrong, but surely a surfactant will make the water more 'slippery' - in other words it will help 'slide' the water between the fibres of the leather and will help to keep it there for a longer period of time -is this what you are trying to achieve?

Lexol is a problem substance as far as I am concerned simply because I have never seen it in the UK. Would anything else work as well for those of us who don't have access to it?

I am completely with you on the desirability of darker, more contrasting stamped patterns, and I suspect most people would feel the same way but is this the only way to get them? Your saddle soap idea seems like a winner but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by making letter dying look funky - does it react with the dyes?

I hope this is as much use to everyone else as it is to me - and thanks to all who are contributing to the pool of knowledge.

I just had a PM from Leatheroo whose amazing masks fill me with delight. She says: I think casing for molding and casing for stamping are quite different. I fill a sink with warm to hot water and submerge the leather until no more bubbles are rising. I need the leather really wet for molding and when it dries the leather goes hard. This method would not be really suitable for most stamping and carving projects unless you wanted the leather to be stiff for the finished product.

So it seems that the project dictates how you case your leather - anyone got any thoughts on that?

[Art]

Hi Ray,

I feel the oil restores some conditioning to leather, especially leathers that have been around awhile. I have some rolls of Tandy leather around that are well over 10 years old, and that stuff generally gets oil before any use.

We aren't talking the "minty" Listerine here. Listerine has Thymol which is a monoterpene phenol and that is most probably the active ingredient. Listerine was named after Joseph Lister who was a proponent originally of Phenol (Carbolic Acid), however Carbolic acid was never used in Listerine. Either Thymol or Phenol would be a good antifungal/antiseptic for addition to caseing solutions. If you have mold/mildew on a piece, you can put it in a plastic bag with a few Thymol crystals and leave it a couple of days to kill it.

More semi-useful info.

Art

Art, what do you think the oiling and setting process actually achieves? Does it 'condition' the leather in some way?

Bruce J, I wondered when we would get around to listerine. Are you talking about good old minty Listerine mouthwash here?