Hand Stitching

[DeltaCypher0]

Howdy, I'm new to the forum, but I joined because I had a question about hand stitching. I'm making a sheath, and when I got to the end of my stitching, I made my first backstitch and when I pulled taught, my thread broke. I'm not sure if I pierced the thread with my needle, but I think that is what happened. I've made the holes bigger for the stitch at the location where I will be backstitching again. I was wondering if this will make my stitch looser now though and maybe I should triple stitch? I'm open to any recommendations, I want my work to be of quality and last a long time, so my stitches need to be very secure. Thanks a lot.

[mlapaglia]

Next time do not enlarge your holes. Just pull out about 7 stitches start another thread 2 back from the last hole with thread in it and stitch to the end like normal then stitch back 2-3 holes. it will be fine.

[chiefjason]

I'm using harness needles with a more dull point than sewing needles. I started off with sharp point needles and noticed they were more likely to split through the thread. The dull point seems to move the thread out of the way. Are you using a knot at your needle eye? I've heard folks talk about breaking thread at the knot. I just let 2-3" of thread hang out of the eye and have not broken any thread.....yet....

As a personal aside, I find myself making my holes smaller so they grip the thread more instead of larger. Larger is easier to stitch for sure, but it does not feel as secure to me any more. The only time I may use a larger hole is if I know I'm starting more than one stitch there. Like on the lined holster I am doing. Some stitching was done before final glueing and some will be done after. I drilled a couple holes larger to incorporate the additional thread.

[katsass]

FWIW from the old grump: I was taught (over 50 years ago) that IF you can pull the needle through the leather by hand (or fingers) "the holes are to damned big' --- that's just what my instructor said. I've used a small pair of smooth-jawed pliers ever since. Mike.

[Emmabeth]

Hi, I'm new here too!

Are you using a single needle or double?

I had a thread break on me the other day sewing up a dog collar and it was just fraying where it went through the eye, probably because I was sewing a triple layer with some webbing in the middle of the 'sandwhich' - if that is happening either your holes are too small and you are in fact pulling too hard (if you have to pull it through with pliers for each stitch thats no good, or your needle is slightly sharp on the inside of the eyelet so check your needles (I have had a couple in the last pack that were like that).

If you are back stitching to finish a piece.. for a single needle technique then hold the loop on the back of the piece (stick your finger through it) rather than pull it tight whilst you make your back stitch, then you can check before you put the needle all the way through that you haven't caught the thread thats already in the hole. If you are double needle stitching you can do the same thing.

When you finish up and trim off your threads, run some wax over the back of them and if appropriate (ie you won't hit any hardware or leave a mark) give it a tap or two with a hammer, alternatively run a bone folder over the back of the stitching hard to flatten them down. Doing this plus time and useage will mean the holes made for stitching will tighten up (remember they are not 'holes' as in some material has been removed, you have just parted the fibres of the leather and stretched them a little to pass the thread through. With pressure and tension they will close up (this is why if you sew the English saddlers double needle technique you only mark the holes in advance, you don't MAKE all the holes in advance as they will have closed up again by the time you get to them.)

[katsass]

From the old grump; A question; what type and size of needles are you using? Proper needles for saddle stitching leather are harness needles, in either #1 or #0 size IMO. They are available from any GOOD leather supplier. Tandy sells a needle with a huge eye -- don't know what it's called because I refuse to even look at Tandy stuff anymore. 30 or 40 years ago they were pretty good -- , not so much any longer -- .IMO. They will also sell size #00 or even #000 for hand stitching, again, IMO, too damned big. As to using a pair of pliers to pull the needle through, that's how I was taught, long before many here were born. Taught by a WWI cavalry soldier whose ancillary duty was to care for the Army issued horse tack, issued to him,and in his care, and that's how he was taught. Small hole, and the threads are held tighter. As to finishing, I don't double back. I stuff the first needle through, throw a figure '8' knot (a granny knot with an extra loop) and stuff the second needle through. Pull it tight and the knot disappears between the layers of leather. Clip the loose ends flush. A pic of an example of my hand stitching. Mike.

P.S. As to going through multiple layers of leather while stitching, that should make no difference. This second pic is of the welt on a holster I made a year or so ago. Thickness doesn't matter.

Edited July 1, 2012 by katsass

[Emmabeth]

I just can't imagine using pliers for every stitch.. I already have my hands full with a needle in each and the awl in the right.. and dawdling along listening to the radio, I average at about 6 stitches per minute.

I was taught by a master saddler, and he used to threaten violence if you put the awl down for anything (So i can pick up the pliers without putting down the awl, bu tto do that each stitch and swap it over for each needle would still take ages)..

Old grump - I am in awe of the thickness on that holster - you used an awl to make the holes on that?? I can easily stick my 3/4 inch awl through my thumb if I'm distracted.. if you had an awl long enough for that I reckon I would do myself a severe mischeif with it!

[katsass]

I just can't imagine using pliers for every stitch.. I already have my hands full with a needle in each and the awl in the right.. and dawdling along listening to the radio, I average at about 6 stitches per minute.

I was taught by a master saddler, and he used to threaten violence if you put the awl down for anything (So i can pick up the pliers without putting down the awl, bu tto do that each stitch and swap it over for each needle would still take ages)..

Old grump - I am in awe of the thickness on that holster - you used an awl to make the holes on that?? I can easily stick my 3/4 inch awl through my thumb if I'm distracted.. if you had an awl long enough for that I reckon I would do myself a severe mischeif with it!

Emmabeth, some of the finest leather work I have ever seen is from England. I'm very sure that English and American methods differ in ways I do not know. Basically many are the same however. On that holster I used an old Osborn awl and actually 'fished' those holes from one side then the other. Instead of using the awl, then a single stitch, as one does when working at it as a full time job or vocation, (and many do that in the U.S.) I punch all of the holes at one time, then go to stitching while watching the tube in the evening. I'm a small, one old man operation, doing nothing but custom holsters and knife sheaths. I work slowly -- as NOBODY expects an old man to do anything in a hurry. Mike.

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Edited July 2, 2012 by katsass

[Emmabeth]

There are some pretty wild differences between English and American traditions - I would tentatively say that the English style is very much more polished and 'finished', and possibly somewhat less 'robust and workman like' than the American style, but there again the American leather carving work is painstaking and incredible, and the English have really no history of that sort of work at all - if we get all crazy and decorative we might make a bridle noseband and browband with a raised, swelled effect, or a little pattern of decorative stitching, but no more (particularly for strictly riding horses - there is a tradition of decorating harness, even relatively work-a-day harness, but its mainly brass decorations rather than carving).

There does, here certainly, seem to be a link between the 'class' if you will of the user/animal involved and the amount of decoration.. For example, you might see quite a lot of decoration on the harnesses of horses towing narrow boats, or a brewery dray.. but an upper class ladies hack would have very plain and strictly BROWN tack (black was for harness/work animals), though finely cut and stitched incredibly finely (the finest I work is 12 to the inch but apparently 16 to the inch was popular 100 years ago!).

Anyway.. I digress, heres (if i can add a picture) an example of my sewing using the double handed techinque:

Edited July 2, 2012 by Emmabeth

[katsass]

There are some pretty wild differences between English and American traditions - I would tentatively say that the English style is very much more polished and 'finished', and possibly somewhat less 'robust and workman like' than the American style, but there again the American leather carving work is painstaking and incredible, and the English have really no history of that sort of work at all - if we get all crazy and decorative we might make a bridle noseband and browband with a raised, swelled effect, or a little pattern of decorative stitching, but no more (particularly for strictly riding horses - there is a tradition of decorating harness, even relatively work-a-day harness, but its mainly brass decorations rather than carving).

There does, here certainly, seem to be a link between the 'class' if you will of the user/animal involved and the amount of decoration.. For example, you might see quite a lot of decoration on the harnesses of horses towing narrow boats, or a brewery dray.. but an upper class ladies hack would have very plain and strictly BROWN tack (black was for harness/work animals), though finely cut and stitched incredibly finely (the finest I work is 12 to the inch but apparently 16 to the inch was popular 100 years ago!).

Anyway.. I digress, heres (if i can add a picture) an example of my sewing using the double handed techinque:

I agree with your characterization of the differences between American and English leatherwork. You must understand that the English have centuries of tradition to maintain, while here in the U.S. most of the leather work is the result of trying to keep alive the traditions and workmanship of our 'western' era, post civil war (around 1860 or so). It's primarily done by individual and independent craftsmen --- most of us learning bits and pieces as we go. Ask any three American leather craftmen how to do one thing, and you'll get four differing answers. Hell, we've not got the centuries of tradition and example that you do. We've only been a country of a combination of French, English, Spanish, Irish, German, Russian, etc. mutts that left every civilized nation in the rest of the world less than 300 years ago. But we try our best. Mike

Edited July 3, 2012 by katsass

[tielz]

I agree with your characterization of the differences between American and English leatherwork. You must understand that the English have centuries of tradition to maintain, while here in the U.S. most of the leather work is the result of trying to keep alive the traditions and workmanship of our 'western' era, post civil war (around 1860 or so). It's primarily done by individual and independent craftsmen --- most of us learning bits and pieces as we go. Ask any three American leather craftmen how to do one thing, and you'll get four differing answers. Hell, we've not got the centuries of tradition and example that you do. We've only been a country of a combination of French, English, Spanish, Irish, German, Russian, etc. mutts that left every civilized nation in the rest of the world less than 300 years ago. But we try our best. Mike

Western tack actually does go back much further than post-civil war.

Lawrence ClaytonVaqueros in Spanish North America were here centuries long before the Anglos.

Edited July 4, 2012 by tielz

[katsass]

Western tack actually does go back much further than post-civil war.

Lawrence ClaytonVaqueros in Spanish North America were here centuries long before the Anglos.

tietz, I agree with you on tack, however, a very large part of what's going on now is the atempt to emulate, primarily, the Spanish influence of leather carving, and, the styles of the 'cowboy' era, (with some modern twists tossed in) --- post civil war. Especially in saddles and gunleather. Mike

[tielz]

tietz, I agree with you on tack, however, a very large part of what's going on now is the atempt to emulate, primarily, the Spanish influence of leather carving, and, the styles of the 'cowboy' era, (with some modern twists tossed in) --- post civil war. Especially in saddles and gunleather. Mike

Exactly. "Cowboy" itself is the English translation of Vaquero.

Your holster is very, very nice!

My primary work is making English strap goods. I have pricking irons that vary from 9 to 12 stitches per inch that are angled rather than straight that will give you the start of the holes you will be stitching through. I use the two needle method using waxed linen thread, making sure each stitch starts and ends on the same side of the holes to give a uniform and smooth look. Over shorter areas like when I stitch the ends of the lacing to the reins, I will just use a backstitch.

[katsass]

Exactly. "Cowboy" itself is the English translation of Vaquero.

Your holster is very, very nice!

My primary work is making English strap goods. I have pricking irons that vary from 9 to 12 stitches per inch that are angled rather than straight that will give you the start of the holes you will be stitching through. I use the two needle method using waxed linen thread, making sure each stitch starts and ends on the same side of the holes to give a uniform and smooth look. Over shorter areas like when I stitch the ends of the lacing to the reins, I will just use a backstitch.

tietz, Thanks for the compliment. In my limited observations, I find that the English seem to have more (number wise) specialty tools, or more tools specifically designed for a singular application, than the Americans do. Pricking irons being one of them. But in the case of those particular items, many of use just use the overstitch for marking, then again to finish out the stitching. In my experience the English do make some very fine tools however. Mike

[Doozer]

Beautiful stitching, nothing like my easy to spot hand stitching. If you don't buy Tabdy needles, which indeed the eyes are HUGE, then please tell me where I can purchase better needles. Being new to this craft, Tandy is the only supplier I know besides Amaon.com, both are very limited as far as non-leather supplies.

[mlapaglia]

Beautiful stitching, nothing like my easy to spot hand stitching. If you don't buy Tabdy needles, which indeed the eyes are HUGE, then please tell me where I can purchase better needles. Being new to this craft, Tandy is the only supplier I know besides Amaon.com, both are very limited as far as non-leather supplies.

Tandy sells Harness needles Get a #0 NOT the #000. Its a good start. Then you can look elsewhere for a #1 needle. The #0 is a lot smaller than the Big eye needle.

[Matt S]

Just to throw my dog into the fight I use number 4 needles and number 2 when using an unusually thick thread. Using as small a needle as possible really does help, which goes hand in hand with tapering your thread or even hand rolling, which not only allows the use of a smaller eyed needle but also makes pullingstitches through much easier.