Adjustments To A 441 To Use Stirrup Plate

[amuckart]

Can anyone tell me what adjustments I should make to a 441 clone to use thicker needle plates like the stirrup and holster plates? I've backed off the presser foot tension a bunch, but I'm not sure if there's anything else I should do.

Thanks.

[Wizcrafts]

I recently removed the feed dog (Who let the Dogs Out?) from my CB4500 (a 441 clone). Initially, I used the flat, slotted throat plate, which works fine, except that reverse no longer matches forward when I throw the lever up to its stop.

Along came an upholstery job, with some intricate turns and corners, so I changed to the curved stirrup plate. Seeing as how the top of the plate is alomost a half inch higher than the flat one, I increased the top tension disk pressure. After a few adjustments, I got the knots balanced in the leather seat cover and piping.

Again, forward and reverse did not match. To compensate, I manually feathered the reverse position to make those few backtack stitches go into the previous holes

When the sharp turns were sewn, I changed to the holster plate, which gives more surface under the presser foot. It is about the same height as the stirrup plate and the tensions set worked as before.

A few days ago I decided to push my machine to its other limits: sewing with #92 thread into thin leather. The holster plate was still installed from the upholstery job. To my dismay, the top thread kept getting jammed in the shuttle race. After dinking with various settings, I gave up and removed that plate, reinstalling the flat slotted plate. The machine instantly began sewing properly! Apparently, the geometry of the raised plates alters the patch the top thread follows to the bobbin case. When the plate is high up, the thread forms a loop that gets caught between the shuttle and the shuttle race. Lowering the throat plate changed the geometry to allow the thread to be pulled around the bobbin case, as it normally is.

These problems were not present when I was sewing with #138 thread. They only manifested themselves when I switched to #92 (and #69) thread.

As for foot pressure, I always back it off to the minimum required to hold down the material (I don't just sew leather on this machine). Less pressure = less pounding and easier feeding, when the feed dogs are let out (who? who?).

IHTH.

[amuckart]

Thank you Wiz, much appreciated. I think I'm close to getting my 441 clone timed and beaten into submission (it was winning for quite a while there).

Do you know why it is that the reverse feed is inconsistent without the feed dogs? The other thing I've noticed with the slotted plate is that the stitch length is reduced compared to using the feed dog.

Thanks.

[CowboyBob]

Thank you Wiz, much appreciated. I think I'm close to getting my 441 clone timed and beaten into submission (it was winning for quite a while there).

Do you know why it is that the reverse feed is inconsistent without the feed dogs? The other thing I've noticed with the slotted plate is that the stitch length is reduced compared to using the feed dog.

Thanks.

It is shorter because of the drag of the leather in reverse.We noticed this problem years ago & determined it is the way the needle bar rock frame is designed,if you look @ it you'll notice it has a bend @ the top which makes it offset & prohibits even feed in reverse w/o the feed dogs.Lower foot pressure might help along with putting some teflon tape on top of the slotted plate to lessen the friction.

It's nice to hear the machine is learning how you want it to sew.

Bob

[Trox]

Hi guys, I was about to write you Wiz about the same question. Still I got my machine to sew well with the cowboy stirrup plate. However, it misses some stitches sometimes; because of its height, the plate requires a much longer thread loop. When you turn the sewing piece it affects the thread tension and makes smaller loops; resulting the hook tip to miss it.

Adjustments I do:

You got to adjust the presser bar so the outside foot just touches the plate (and so the foot height lifted by hand lever is 12 mm. conditions; needle bar at it’s top position) And then again adjust the alternating height of the front foot (alternating height set to be equal with the outside foot; alternating 4 mm. Condition; alternating height set to the smallest, top of the slide adjustment). Just backing of the foot pressure alone is not enough with this high plate, and then you will damage something.

I think I will reduce the height of my plate and make it flat on the top as I saw one in the forum did with his. Besides the long loop situation, the top of the outer foot will hit the needle bar when lifted at the wrong time; great care has to be taken using this plate. A trim of some of its height will make it much better, I think it was the member “Particle” (I am sorry I do not remember his nick) who had done this mod to his plate. When you also have different height of presser feet’s changing attachments, it is a lot of adjustments, some modifying might help. I have as we speak also ordered the slotted plate, I think that will work better when you do not need the height and only will eliminate the feed dog.

Please some of you who have this plate like you Bruce Johnson and Particle, please let us know what you do when you change.

In advance thanks

Trox

Can anyone tell me what adjustments I should make to a 441 clone to use thicker needle plates like the stirrup and holster plates? I've backed off the presser foot tension a bunch, but I'm not sure if there's anything else I should do.

Thanks.

[Trox]

I will add this, your machine might have a higher foot lift than mine ( 24 mm on mine) No way I can use the (cowboy) stirrup plate without adjusting the presserbar and alternating height. This is also the same on Adlers, I am suprised how simmilar they are ( or then maybe not, in the world of copycats) Good machines this 441, strong but sound like a

threshing machine.

From a new 441 user in Adler land

[bruce johnson]

I have a Ferdco 2000 which might be different than some of the other clones as far as what is on the bottom. When I put on the stirrup plate, I put on the right toe foot, back off the tension one turn and go to it. That's all I have to do. Sews good just like that.

[Trox]

The accessories are different; Ferdco told me their attachment did not fit a regular clone because of their lower needle guide. This is depended of the height of the stirrup plate and feet you use too. I have feet’s in three different heights. I do my adjustments according to the Juki manual. When you put on a 10 mm high plate, it is the same as sewing the same height of leather. You have to withdraw that height from the machines total capacity. It’s of course limited of the needle bar stroke, but if you zero the machine on top of the stirrup plate its sewing conditions should be better. On the big Adler’s you get a distance piece on 12 mm to adjust the outer foot height, here I use a piece of paper. Needle bar at it top it should hold the paper down, but you will be able to pull it out from the foot.

You also will have to consider the harness foot I am using is 4 mm longer than the original and the plate is very high, in addition, my max foot lift is only 24 mm. The later generation machines have 27 mm foot lift. The original TSC 441 lifts only 20 mm. With all the different attachment sizes too, it will be individual how they should be adjusted. The ideal sewing conditions however, should be the way Juki explains it in their service manual. I will trim down my plate; make it flat on the top and reduce its height a bit, as an other member has done, it will suit my machine better. If I could get Bob to send me that slotted plate, I will have all I need to do my work on it.

Thanks

Trox

I have a Ferdco 2000 which might be different than some of the other clones as far as what is on the bottom. When I put on the stirrup plate, I put on the right toe foot, back off the tension one turn and go to it. That's all I have to do. Sews good just like that.

[amuckart]

Thank you all.

Bob: It's a good machine, but it's been a hell of a learning curve for me getting it sewing right. When it arrived the hook timing was completely off and it would break the thread because the hook would be too far reversed when the takeup lever tried to pull the loop up. I'd have been completely stuffed without the 441 engineer's manual but I went through that adjustment by adjustment and eventually worked out most of how everything is interacting in terms of feed, foot lift, and needle / hook timing.

It sews well now with the feed dog, and I think tonight's adjustments will get it working a lot better with the slotted plates. The only thing it's doing now is making a strange twanging clunk in the top thread as the takeup lever pulls the thread loop off the shuttle, which I'm assuming isn't normal.

[leatherkind]

This is not exectly on topic but it is related to the stirrup plate.

I modified a stirrup plate on my CB 4500 and now i can use it without removing the dog.

It took me about an hour to carefully grind it from the bottom side to allow enough room for the dog.

I was trying not to grind it all the way through and make a hole in it...

Initially i thought of getting it done on some real equipment but then a yer past and i realised that it will be both:

perfect and never . Rioby grinder did the job. Do not make fun of it - it is a far cry from the duct tape!

It seems to work fine so far. I do not need to mess with the dog any more and can easily change plates whenever i need.

For some reason i do not have to change tension when changing plates.

I also made the high point of the plate a little lower but that was not relevant to the dog issue.

Edited October 3, 2012 by leatherkind

[Trox]

Hei Leatherkind,

Nice job! Now it will not skip any stitches when you use the stirup plate. What height are your feed dog att.? Do you think the plate still is strong enough for heavy use? How heigh is your machin`s foot lift (with original plate)? I have not had the time to modify my plate yet, been busy installing a new Efka motor and air foot lift on it.

A question far off topic, what kind of thread lube are you using? I have been using ordenary Tandy neatsfoot oil, and having some stitch errors with this. I think the oil is making the polyester thread sticky and keeping it from making proper thread loops, and then again occasionally it skip stitches. I will try the silicon oil instead, however, that does not mix with dyes and paint. I have to do all coloring prior to sewing a projeckt. If you have any experience with this matter please let me know.

Thanks

Trox

[leatherkind]

Thanks Trox

The plate is stainless steel and has planty of strength. The clearance under the presser foot with normal flat plate is 21mm and with this modified stirrup plate it is 13mm.

I am not using any lube and never used polyester. I never dyed production pieces, so can not offer any help on that, sorry.

[Wizcrafts]

Trox;

I run all of my top thread through a lube pot containing liquid silicon. It helps maintain top thread tension, lubricates the inside of the holes and cools the needle. The silicon is clear and does not appear to discolor natural veg-tan leather at all. Ditto for the clear oil I use to lubricate the machine.

[Ken Nelson]

Wiz, What kind of thread are you using? Nylon or Polyester? Thanks Ken

[Wizcrafts]

Wiz, What kind of thread are you using? Nylon or Polyester? Thanks Ken

Bonded nylon.

[Trox]

Trox;

I run all of my top thread through a lube pot containing liquid silicon. It helps maintain top thread tension, lubricates the inside of the holes and cools the needle. The silicon is clear and does not appear to discolor natural veg-tan leather at all. Ditto for the clear oil I use to lubricate the machine.

Thank you Wiz, I have no experience with this liquid silicon. However, I remember when I spray painted cars, if any silicon mixed with the paint it made big ponds in the paint. If they had repaired the windshield with silicon, only a very small amount of silicon made big ponds in the paint. It did not matter how well you sanded the car body you had to use silicon remover to get rid of the stuff. That is the reason for my skepticism towards silicon. My Adler’s use the 328 needle, this needle are not running as hot as the 794. It gets smoking hot, the lube is absolutely necessary. I will try the silicon stuff, I to be using the white machine oil.

Thanks

Trox

[MADMAX22]

It is shorter because of the drag of the leather in reverse.We noticed this problem years ago & determined it is the way the needle bar rock frame is designed,if you look @ it you'll notice it has a bend @ the top which makes it offset & prohibits even feed in reverse w/o the feed dogs.Lower foot pressure might help along with putting some teflon tape on top of the slotted plate to lessen the friction.

It's nice to hear the machine is learning how you want it to sew.

Bob

Bob on my machine (4500 from Neils) I was having a little issue with back tacking not working right. Come to find out the little screws on the lever for going from forward to revers that you can see inside the machine on the slot (hard to describe) were actually loose. Once I got them good and tight the back stitch will stay in the same holes for a good little stretch. Probably not for a long stretch because of what you mentioned but much better then when I was first started using it.