How Do I Cuir Boil With Glue?

[Mrs Barry Hicks]

You can use animal hide glue. I don't have time right now to answer this, but I'll get back on here and post it, unless you want to contact me off list.

[ChuckBurrows]

Cuir boulli is actually a lost art. No one today knows how it was done.

Wit all due respect but that's an "urban" legend - the method of using water and heat to change leather at the molecular level (occurs at around 160° F) was never lost - it has continued to be used even into modern days - don't believe me> THan read John W. Waterer's books on the history of leather - while some of the methods used in the past may longer be used in modern times, the basic method of water and heat is still being used today to form items such as steamer trunk corners and molded leather cigar cases. It's the wet heat that creates the change.

One of the best researched on line articles for cuir bouilli is here http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/hl.html

FWIW - I've been using the basic method in re-creating original pre-1900 leather goods (including armour) for over 45 years and when compared to the originals (one on one next to each other) the only difference was in the aging....Why folks want to complicate the method with glues, etc is beyond me? After finishing the cuir bouilli process I have used high heated wax or oils as a sealer, but even that's unnecessary since regular room temp or low heat waxes or oils work just fine.

as always though everybody's mileage will vary....

[Mrs Barry Hicks]

Well I must say that seeing so much opinionated responses on this subject leaves me a bit saddened.

First off I'll post this link for those who want to read it. http://astelier-medieval-du-cuir.over-blog.com/article-21921258.html Might I suggest using Google chrome, it has a built in translator. The website overall has some great studies. Many of them I have tried, though I use rabbit hide glue, which comes in granular form and you must prepare it for it to be used. You can get it at http://www.naturalpigments.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamVen=12 Just scroll down, they have a variety of glues. There are other places that sell it as well online, just look for animal hide glue, there is also fish glue.

Cuir Bouilli as ChuckBurrows has mentioned is still very much used today. And there is some loss of information that we are still trying to recover. See, most medieval and earlier leather working was done under what are known as guilds. And most of that information was passed down verbally. Only around the Victorian times did leather working information become available in book form. There are a bunch of good free books online under Google Books.

Rabbit hide glue has been used with leather for a long time. It is still used today by master wood workers that do restoration on wooden items and some leather items as well. And some of us crazy people who choose to study it's history. And as for Cuir Bouilli and it's definition.... Keep an open mind. One place may have thought hot water was used, and another place hundreds of miles away may have used cold water (leather bubbles either way). And the application of sealers/hardeners could range from wax to glue to varnishes (shellac is ancient along with hide glue).

Remember to have fun and keep an open mind. I don't think there was a one and only way to do this. Different applications for different results.

Enjoy, play and learn. It's what makes us the great teachers for the next generations.

[Fowlingpiece]

I can see the possibility of the use of hide glue in the process in times past.

I use it in an old time concoction for an edge coating.

[Hisself]

I'm new to this forum and while cruising through the topics I couldn't help myself when I read this one.

Like Mrs Hicks I'm of the opinion that we must keep a very open mind on this subject because I'm convinced that there were several methods used to create a stiff enough leather piece that made it suitable "armor".

Remember that leather armor was only used in most countries for a very short period and was used over padded gambesons and mail. Only in Germany and Belgium did it seem to hang around much longer. The exception was tournament armor well into the 1600's.

Back in the 60's while I was in the military I became acquainted with a bunch of Bavarians who talked me into joining them to fight steel on steel competitions and they used leather and mail. A couple of these guys came from old families that still had possession of a few pieces dating back to the 12-1300's. Most were pretty rough but there was at least one or two pieces that were very well preserved.

I was fascinated to see at least three different methods for creating this armor, and that they too argued incessantly over which ancestor's method was indeed the best. I can tell you this. Almost all of these pieces were treated in some fashion with a combination of fats and waxes. Whether it was actually from the process or applied later as a preservative I don't know. But the pieces were much heavier that you might think, I would guess up to 5/16 thick on the cuirass and shoulder/pauldrons. Without exception they were highly decorated, and one or two were laminated with what appeared to be heavy linen, coated in gesso or something like it and painted.

They were hard, but not brittle and would actually dent if struck yet still retained their shape. The attitude being that if it is too damaged to use they would replace it.

They reported that the armor was originally made by immersing wet, not soaked leather into hot wax and then pressed to shape in wooden form that were slowly baked in an oven at low temperature for several days. This is what they believe, and whether or not it helps or adds anything to the argument I don't know. But just being able to touch these pieces of history was quite a thrill for me, and of course being in my twenties I didn't think that close to 50 years later I would be wondering about how it was made.

There were a few pieces on display in Paris around the same time but I don't recall that there was an adequate explanation of the process their either.

Just my two cents.

[gamli]

Mrs Hicks. 

 

Great reference article. I have started experimenting with this method of hardening leather.

Do you have any historical references for this method?

 

[Northmount]

On August 13, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Mrs Barry Hicks said:

Well I must say that seeing so much opinionated responses on this subject leaves me a bit saddened.

First off I'll post this link for those who want to read it. http://astelier-medieval-du-cuir.over-blog.com/article-21921258.html Might I suggest using Google chrome, it has a built in translator. The website overall has some great studies. Many of them I have tried, though I use rabbit hide glue, which comes in granular form and you must prepare it for it to be used. You can get it at http://www.naturalpigments.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamVen=12 Just scroll down, they have a variety of glues. There are other places that sell it as well online, just look for animal hide glue, there is also fish glue.

Cuir Bouilli as ChuckBurrows has mentioned is still very much used today. And there is some loss of information that we are still trying to recover. See, most medieval and earlier leather working was done under what are known as guilds. And most of that information was passed down verbally. Only around the Victorian times did leather working information become available in book form. There are a bunch of good free books online under Google Books.

Rabbit hide glue has been used with leather for a long time. It is still used today by master wood workers that do restoration on wooden items and some leather items as well. And some of us crazy people who choose to study it's history. And as for Cuir Bouilli and it's definition.... Keep an open mind. One place may have thought hot water was used, and another place hundreds of miles away may have used cold water (leather bubbles either way). And the application of sealers/hardeners could range from wax to glue to varnishes (shellac is ancient along with hide glue).

Remember to have fun and keep an open mind. I don't think there was a one and only way to do this. Different applications for different results.

Enjoy, play and learn. It's what makes us the great teachers for the next generations.

 

49 minutes ago, gamli said:

Mrs Hicks. 

 

Great reference article. I have started experimenting with this method of hardening leather.

Do you have any historical references for this method?

 

Hi Mrs Hicks, see question for you.

Tom

[TwoRoads]

OP, can you tell us what properties you are looking for rather than saying you want to use a specific method?  I've had good luck with the 160 degrees "boiling" for larp armor with sno seal.  It has held its shape nicely, thickened what I had a little, I was using 8-10oz, but then also didn't become brittle.  

But if you want a specific look or property I bet there are a lot of people here who could tell you exactly what you do want to use.