Saddle making tutorials

[Alan Bell]

I've been posting the steps I take to build a braided rawhide bosal in the braiding forum over the last 2 weeks or so. As a fledging saddle maker that is mostly self taught I would LOVE to see some of the processes some of our more learned and experienced saddle makers go through to build let's say a metal ground seat vs an all leather ground seat. Or how about how you do your stirrup leathers and fenders. Hey maybe a horn wrap tutorial. Quite possibly a nice series on how you make patterns or on how you tool parts like seats, Cheyenne rolls or even swells and then put them onto the saddle! Gregg or Darcy or Bruce or Troy or Kieth or Steve M or Ashley or Bob ( I feel like the lady from Romper Room) Heck ANYBODY can step up and ride this pony!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

I rule my destiny!

Bob Marley - Put It On

[steve mason]

Howdy Alan;

If you have a look at my saddle blog and go back in the archives I have a couple tutorials on there, they are not very detailed, but they will give you a brief look at some of the steps I take in making a saddle or stamping and carving. I have not done much on the blog for a while as I have had to much work on my bench.

Steve

[ArtS]

Boy Steve that is really excellent work!

ArtS

[greg gomersall]

Alan I have enough trouble just checking my email let alone attempting something of that scale. If there is something I can help you with on a 1 on 1 basis feel free to PM me. Greg

[Alan Bell]

Thanks Steve, I checked out your blog and I think even having that much on here as a tutorial might help some of us out.

Gregg, i know how hard it is to find the time to do the tutorial. I've got a customer waiting on the bosal and another one waiting on a set of romal reins and then I have to start the nxt projects and make up some more rawhide!!! All this is in between trips in the semi to Nashville, then New Orleans, and finally Washington D.C.! I could have finished the bosal already but I want to take pictures of the start of the heel knot for the blankity blank tutorial! kinda wished I hadn't started it myself but I know it helps me as much as the others that may be wanting to braid a bosal. But don't worry you know me I have NO PROBLEM asking questions!!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Ol' pirates yes they rob I; sold I to merchant ships

Bob Marley - Redemption Songs

[Tosch]

About a year ago Darc and Greg responded to a lot of questions by non-professionals in the Western Horseman Forum. Some quetions and responses I saved to my computer so I have them handy whenever I need it, including

1) "How to tighten a horn wrap" . I saved the question and the responses by Greg and Darc.

2) Also responding to a question Darc explained tin vs leather groundseat and making a groundseat with/without bar risers with lots of photos, too. It is a longer 2 part response and I saved this also. ...

3) And finally I saved Darc's answer to my question regarding pull on tree from a flat-plate vs an inskirt rigging, again with lots of pics.

If 1) and/or 2) and /or 3) are of interest and if Darc and Greg agree I could copy it in here.

Darc and Greg - I beg yoour pardon that I did not first ask you whether it is ok to make this offer. But you invested a lot of time and patience to answer lots of questions on that forum and "knowing" you ....and if it would be helpfull for someone here.....

If however my post here is off - I am sorry.

Tosch

Edited July 30, 2008 by Tosch

[IanCantwell]

Hi Alan,

When I did my saddle making course the teacher and I took a hundred or so photos of the various stages and I took notes of the key points. I haven't had chance to type them up, keep them in my 'little black book' but I will do soon. Anyhow, if you want I could burn a copy of the photo CD if you think it would be of use or alternatively I might be able to upload it to my company web site and let you know the page URL. Let me know if I can be of help.

By the way, I enjoyed the braiding tutorial but not yet got the nerve or time to have a go, someday.

Ian.

Edited July 30, 2008 by IanCantwell

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Hi Tosch,

I can't remember the exact details of those posts you are referring to, I can't speak for Greg, but feel free to post what I wrote if you think it may be helpful to anyone.

Darc

[greg gomersall]

Tosch go ahead. Greg

[Tosch]

Ok, so I will go ahead and post 4 posts.

If however you professionals think it is of no interest to you, then admin, please, delete the post(s).

Tosch

Edited July 30, 2008 by Tosch

[Tosch]

Question by a WH Forum member: " How to tighten a horn wrap"

On my Wade with a post horn, I have a mulehide wrap on the horn. The wrap is having a tendancy to come loose. I have taken it into a couple different shops and they used a chinaman to retighten it. After a branding this past weekend, it is now loosening again. What can I do to prevent this? I am dallying the right way, is the wrap loosening when I run a little slack in the rope?

Greg's answer:

If you are a right handed roper the wrap should be going clockwise and you dally counter clockwise, exact opposite for a southpaw. Sliding rope should not loosen your wrap. If they are nailng the finish end of the wrap under the gullet pull those nails out and just leave the tail under the the start of the wrap to hold it this way you can grab the tail and pull any slack through as it appears from time to time. Depending on how tight the wrap was done it can be amazing how much slack I guy can find dallying. Maybe Darcy could post a picture of a wrapped horn with the tail passed under the start as it does't matter if you start nailed under the gullet or from a fork screw the technique is the same just the positioning is different. Greg

Darc's answer:

Hey .....

I've posted a bunch of photos showing different wraps that are started in different places with a couple nailed in the gullet and a few with the fork screws that Greg mentioned; As he said, it doesn't matter how the wrap was started but it helps to leave a little handle to take up the bit of slack when it does happen. Check the area where the wrap ends... the tail of the wrap should be underneath where the wrap started and this should be a real snug fit; the start of the wrap should be pushing down on the tail of the wrap. I've seen forks that if you don't place the screw in the right place, you get very little tension there and it's easy to slide the tail underneath. While in Oklahoma, Greg showed us a neat little trick to get the tail under the start of the wrap, but if you try to do this any other way, you really have to work at it to get that tail underneath... that's how tight it is through there.

Another thing to look at is how tight the wrap is overall. On my wraps you can't peel up the edge of the wrap anywhere after I tighten them. Check the top edge going over the horncap and top lip as it passes under the cap; you shouldn't be able to roll that edge at all. If you find that you can roll it, you might want to tighten it again. It helps if you soak the wrap for a while (mulehide doesn't absorb water to well). I usually get the wrap as tight as I can by pulling it by hand and then use the chinaman after the passing the tail under the start of the wrap. Saddlesoap on the wrap and the chinaman strap helps allow the tail of the chinaman to slip while tightening it. After I have it as tight as I want it, I usually leave the chinaman on it over night with the end of the wood handle wedged down against the cantle so that it can't loosen itself as it dries.

If you can post some photos of your fork and horn, it might give us a better idea why it's loosening off. If you can't post a couple of photos, have a look at the photos below and see if your wrap looks similar to any of the ones in the photos.

[Tosch]

This is Part 1 on groundseat and how to do them: key words: leather, tin, bar risers

Darc's explanation / answer to a WH Forum members question:

Hi ......,

as a saddlemaker, my opinion of tin versus all leather groundseats is that both types of groundseats can be made to feel like a little piece of heaven for your butt and both can be made to cripple you after a long day.

For any newbies to the terms... the ground seat is the build up leather underneath the finished seat you sit on. When the saddle is made, the groundseat is shaped to provide the rider with a secure, balanced position (hopefully) that will allow the rider to stay balanced with the horse. There are as many styles of groundseats as there are saddlemakers as most saddlemakers do things their own way. Some of the things that can affect the groundseat shape are the tree, the way the leather (and sometimes tin) is applied to the tree and then shaped, and the saddlemakers experience or perspective on groundseat shape. Quality trees play an important aspect because some of the shape of a groundseat is actually built into the top surface of the bars of a tree.

.....'s question refers to the first, or sometimes second layer of the groundseat which is the strainer. Strainers take up the space between the bars and provide support for the rider's weight so that you aren't feeling the inside edges of the bars pressing against your pelvic area. The strainers come in a few varieties including leather, tin, and fiberglass.

I have attached a few photos to show you the two most common types which are tin and leather. I have never done a tin seat myself, but have seen them put in a few times and am quite familiar with the process. To dispell any myths that tin seats are bad, some of the top saddlemakers around use seat tins... Dale Harwood and Jeremiah Watt are two such makers.

Some makers believe that the seat tin is quicker to install and not as heavy as the leather strainer. My own opinion is that I can put a leather strainer in just as fast as a tin strainer and the weight difference is extremely small. Some makers and riders will tell you that the all leather seat will mold to your butt and fit better over the years as the leather strainer gives slightly with use. Others will tell you that the leather strainer will sag over the years leaving you with a bad seat. My own opinion is that if the seat strainer is installed properly, it would take some serious misuse and neglect for it to ever sag enough for the rider to feel a big difference. What is most important with the leather seat strainer is for the saddlemaker to select a good piece of leather from the hide (I like nice tight grain) and then stretch it very tight over the bars. In the picture below which shows the leather seat strainer, you will see two rows of nails running the length of the bars... you might also be able to see some black spots near each of the nails. The process is one of using a seat spike to stretch the leather over the bars and then placing a nail while the leather is under alot of tension. The process is then repeated on the other side of the bar continuing back and forth until the strainer is secured. This is done while the leather is slightly wet, when the leather dries it shrinks a little and should leave the strainer tight as a drum. If the strainer can be easily flexed, the process was a failure and the strainer may very well sag over the years. Incidentally, the last picture shows a tree with "bar risers" on it; Bar risers create a channel on the bars for the stirrup leathers to sit in. Either type of groundseat (tin or all leather) can be made with or without bar risers. On an all leather ground seat, the seat strainer would be stretched over the bar risers. If not using the risers the strainer would be stretched over the bars of the tree as shown in the other photo.

As concerns the seat tin, some makers and riders will tell you that because the tin is rigid, it will never shape to your butt... of course there is no chance of it sagging either. I think in the end it is important to choose a saddlemaker with the experience to deliver a properly shaped seat, regardless of strainer type, which suits you and your riding style.

Off the topic of seat strainers but still talking about groundseats, I have heard a few people who have mentioned getting the groundseat shaped to your butt by either going to the saddlemaker's shop while the seat is being shaped or by having the tree sent to you so that you can sit in it. My own opinion is that if this works for you or gives you a sense of security that the seat has a good shape, then by all means do it. On the other hand, sitting on a tree that has a ground seat in it will not give you the same feeling as riding the saddle when the horse's movement is affecting where and how you sit the seat. A good saddlemaker should be able to make a "generic seat" that will put a rider in a secure, balanced position and be confident that their customer will be happy with that seat without ever having to sit on the groundwork while it is being shaped. Of course, for customers with specific needs ie. physical problems or weight issues, an experienced saddlemaker should be able to shape the seat to accomodate these issues to a certain extent.

Hope this helps,

Darc

[Tosch]

This is part 2 on groundseats. Key words: bar risers , channels, lump..

Darc responded to my question regarding "lump":

Hi Tosch,

you could replace "stretched over" with "installed over" if you are talking about the tin strainer instead of the leather strainer. I have seen seat tins installed under the bar risers and over the bar risers. The reason this was able to be done is because different seat tins have different shapes... some manufactured ones (like the one in the photo I posted) have curved areas for the stirrup leathers to pass between the edge of the bar and the edge of the strainer. Other strainers cover the bar in the stirrup leather slot area so they must be put on over the bar risers to create a slot for the stirrup leather. Not sure if it makes much of a difference to anything...just depends if you make your own tin from scratch and how you make it... or if you use prefab tins, how they were manufactured.

As far as the lump that you are curious about, I have posted three photos with this post to show you why there is no lump. The first photo shows the bottom edge of the bar; note the thickness of the leather between the two red marks... it is roughly the same thickness as the stirrup leather. The second photo shows where the leather is cut to create the channel that bar risers would create. Note the two horizontal lines at the top; Everything below the bottom line on the top piece of the ground seat will be cut off. The area between these lines will be left intact on the top piece of the ground seat, but everything underneath will be cut right through the ground seat for the stirrup leathers to pass through and around the bars of the trees. The stirrup leather will sit in the channel on the top of the bar so there should be no noticable lump.

You might wonder why someone would make their ground seat this way instead of with bar risers. There are downfalls to both styles depending on the skill of the saddlemaker. First, in the style shown here with no bar risers, there is a risk of scoring the rawhide of the tree when the leather is cut to create the channel. If the rawhide is scored, it is only a matter of time before it splits and weakens the tree in an area that could be considered the weakest area of the bar (the wood is the thinnest and narrowest in the stirrup leather slot area). If a saddlemaker is careful when cutting these areas, you should be able to do it without scoring the rawhide. Another challenge is trying to keep the depth of the channel roughly the same as the thickness of the stirrup leathers. If the channel is too shallow, you might have the lump you mentioned and it probably wouldn't disappear over time... that would require the thickness of the stirrup leathers to become thinner. If it is too deep, the top finished seat that you sit on could start to sink into the area as the saddle ages. This requires skill and experience on the saddlemakers part to try and keep the stirrup leathers flush with the rest of the groundseat. The benefit of this style of seat is eliminating a layer of leather in the seat which brings you closer to the horse and shaves a little weight. It can also create a slightly narrower seat with less rise in the front. Some may consider the weight savings to be minimal, but shave a little weight in several different areas of a saddle and the finished saddle is substantially lighter. Critics of this style sometimes tell you that you risk scoring the rawhide and the finished seat is weaker in this area. I already explained the scoring part and I don't know anybody who rides on the crown of their seat.

Incidentally, I make both types of seats (bar risers and no bar risers) depending on my customers weight, height, and size and what kind of riding they do.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Tosch

[Tosch]

I had asked whether an inskirt rig really can have the pull on the tree as a flat-plate or whether this is wishful thinking

Here is Darc's answer with pics:

Hi Tosch,

It is true that a properly installed inskirt rigging will pull evenly front to back in the same fashion as a flat plate rigging. In my opinion there isn't a perfect rigging... most styles have their benefits and all of them have their downfalls.

I've posted a couple of photos of a saddle which will have flate plate rigging to illustrate one of the differences between inskirt and flatplate. The photo of the tree with the rigging on it shows how flatplate achieves the even pull front to back. The leather attaches to the lower portion of the fork, is inlaid just ahead of the cantle, and wraps around the back side of the cantle. When the saddle is cinched, it pulls everything down.

The second photo is the same tree without the rigging. Imagine a rigging plate (doesn't matter what style of plate) installed in the skirt in the same position as the plate on the flat plate rigging, you can see that the plate would have the benefit of the entire length of the skirt to pull the saddle down evenly, and it'll do just that. On the plus side it will pull it down evenly without the two layers of leather under the rider's legs. Now for the downside... If you look at the first photo and how low the rigging hangs, you can see that this rigging will help keep the saddle stable from side to side; useful for mounting your horse, and roping. Advocates of in skirt rigging will tell you that you can build your skirts deeper to accomplish the same effect, and you certainly can... for some it becomes an aesthetic arguement.

The only other downfall to in skirt rigging is that if anything ever happens to compromise the integrity of the rigging, you have to either do a major patch repair (not recommended) or replace the entire skirt... you are probably looking at a large expense and a skirt that doesn't match the rest of the saddle unless the original maker can do the repair. Conversely, flatplate rigging would be somewhat easier and less expensive to replace.

In skirt rigging that doesn't use a metal plate should pull down just as evenly but the rigs I've seen are prone to wearing out even quicker around where the latigos hang.

hope that helps.

Darc

[ArtS]

Have you sen this?

ArtS

[jbird]

howdy y'all

I don't know if this is off topic but I am going to be taking a saddle class some time and would really be interested in seeing how you pros do it from start to finish and what advice would give me for any prep for a class like that.

Josh

[ArtS]

Josh,

If you get a good teacher you're going to learn a ton not just about saddle making but different aspects of leather working. If you can get a hold of any videos or books on saddle making that will help but your teacher may use another approach so be prepared to do some things differently.

ArtS

[freckels41]

@toche do you will share the saddle pattern with us to copy in my country its difficult to get.

[Newfman]

Arts, I saw that video this past weekend. It brings me to yet another metal strainer question. In that video, it appeared that there were two tins used. Am I not seeing that correctly? If that is what I am seeing, what is the purpose?

Thanks,

Dennis